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TheManWithoutFear
Fall From Grace
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 468
Location: Dunmore, PA
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 Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:07 am Post subject: Daredevil: Father #6 Discussion (Spoilers) |
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Awesome.
A bit slow and more like get the point in the beginning but damn that reveal was nice!! Great read the 5th time!!
I love Joe Q's art too.
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: ?! |
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I love Quesada's artwork too, but now that Father has finally ended, I'm not sure what the point of it all was. I've got some big questions...
1. What did Jack Murdock have to do with all this? Was Joe's big point that Jack Murdock was at least a better father than Maggie's?
2. Maggie keeps blaming Matt Murdock for everything, but I still don't understand how she comes to this conclusion. How does Matt pushing her father out of the way of a truck cause her to get ovarian cancer? Maybe if Matt had allowed the man to die, he wouldn't have been around to molest her, but who's to say he didn't molest her before the truck incident?
3. Now that the series is over, what was the point of all that chaos with the Santerians? They had nothing to do with Maggie at all, who turned out to be the murderer. Were they just an excuse for Joe to draw a new Daredevil costume?
I've got to say, I'm disappointed. My own father died around the time that issue number two (finally) came out. Since this was (allegedly) such a personal journey for Quesada -- and seemingly a meditation of sorts on his own father -- I thought I would be able to share in his journey by following this series. But it was always so disjointed. The flashback memories of Jack Murdock never seemed to have anything -- anything at all -- to do with the present day action. The Nero character was explored and explored and explored, but in the end he had nothing to do with the solving of the crime. That much time spent on a red herring. The final flashback at the end is indeed touching, but it is completely isolated from everything else that is going on. There has been no cohesion at all throughout this miniseries. I can't imagine Quesada's reasoning or thought process working on this series -- whenever he found the time to work on it.
I love his artwork. Other than Daredevil #12, this is the only other thing I've read that he has written. (Although I've heard good things about his Iron Man story.) Judging from this I'd say he should stick to visual art.
Last edited by Dimetre on Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Acerbus
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: ?! |
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| Dimetre wrote: |
2. Maggie keeps blaming Matt Murdock for everything, but I still don't understand how she comes to this conclusion. How does Matt pushing her father out of the way of a truck cause her to get ovarian cancer? Maybe if Matt had allowed the man to die, he wouldn't have been around to molest her, but who's to say he didn't molest her before the truck incident?
3. Now that the series is over, what was the point of all that chaos with the Santerians? They had nothing to do with Maggie at all, who turned out to be the murderer. Were they just an excuse for Joe to draw a new Daredevil costume?
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Those questions are a staple of Noir writing... the hanging-up-in-the-air ambiguity. And I think NeRo's character was meant to deflect the reader's interest, though it's also clear that the universal theme of how people can be damaged by their fathers' death also runs strong in his subplot. Personally, I don't like being condescended to and having absolutely every theme in the story spelled out for me. That's one of the reasons that the Director's Cut of Blade Runner is so good... it makes you interpret it without any cues. I absolutely loved this story, which says something because by issue three, I was severely underwhelmed with the art. (Something about Daredevil in a fencing mask riding a motorcycle and looking like the Hulk) |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: ?! |
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| Acerbus wrote: | | Those questions are a staple of Noir writing... the hanging-up-in-the-air ambiguity. And I think NeRo's character was meant to deflect the reader's interest, though it's also clear that the universal theme of how people can be damaged by their fathers' death also runs strong in his subplot. Personally, I don't like being condescended to and having absolutely every theme in the story spelled out for me. That's one of the reasons that the Director's Cut of Blade Runner is so good... it makes you interpret it without any cues. |
I don't demand every theme in the story being spelled out for me. If you're going to tell a story though, at least have a good reason for certain characters to be present in the story, not just for the sake of your theme. Nero ended up having nothing to do with anything -- and being scarred by his father is not a good enough reason to justify his presence. If that is enough of a justification, you could also justify plopping Johnny Cash into this story, because he was also damaged by his father.
I don't think Daredevil: Father hangs together well as a story at all. If Quesada wanted to do an exploration of a theme, his efforts were marred by all the Johnny Sockets, Santerians mumbo jumbo. He tried to do both, and, for me, it just doesn't work. |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: ?! |
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| Acerbus wrote: |
Personally, I don't like being condescended to and having absolutely every theme in the story spelled out for me. That's one of the reasons that the Director's Cut of Blade Runner is so good... it makes you interpret it without any cues. |
Very well put. I feel the same way. I am quite shocked at how well Joe Q wrapped this up with suprisingly exceptional writing skills. The art in this issue was probably the best of the series.
As for the molestation, I assumed that it occured before and after Maggie's father being saved by Matt. The reason being that child molestation rarely ever stops after one incident. I believed that Maggie saw her father dying at that moment, rather than being saved, as her way out of a bad situation and not as avoiding the whole period of molestation. The resentment becomes that much more greater if Matt's rescue enters the picture at a time of immediate and pending distress.
I need to sit down this weekend and read this series as a whole to properly judge it.
C.
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: ?! |
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| Clayton Blind Love wrote: | | Very well put. I feel the same way. I am quite shocked at how well Joe Q wrapped this up with suprisingly exceptional writing skills. The art in this issue was probably the best of the series. |
I agree. It was a very solid final issue - much better than I expected - and it should hopefully be enough to quieten all the shouting about lateness. Quesada's writing and art was possibly the best I've ever seen it, and that ending has particular resonance considering the personal story behind the project.
| Clayton Blind Love wrote: | I need to sit down this weekend and read this series as a whole to properly judge it.
C. |
I actually read the whole lot through today in preparation for #6, and it hangs together very well. Also, today was the first day that the flashbacks to Matt saving the old man's life in his origin story really leapt out at me. Considering the importance of the oft-repeated flashback to his Dad roughing up the butcher, it should have clicked much sooner, but today was the first time I realised that there must be some signifiance to the repetition of the image of Matt saving the old guy.
The whole series has been really well constructed - far better than I realised when I read the first couple of issues - and I look forward to reading it through as a whole a few more times in future.
Also, regarding the Santerians: yes, I was disappointed that they weren't really followed up here, and they were a bit of a red herring, but they definitely added some colour (and action!) to the series. I'll be interested to see whether other creators do anything with them in future. |
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vtsoxfan7
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 182
Location: The 'noke, VA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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I also went back and dug out the first 5 issues to refresh my memory before finally getting around to yesterday's issue #6.
Just as others have stated, I too was a little disappointed at how little the Santerians actually impacted the story although I thought they were used well is helping to show that Matt was so concerned with only Hell's Kitchen that he was overlooking the troubles it caused other nearby regions and how they were actually linked to the Kitchen.
As for Maggie ultimately blaming her cancer on Matt, this is how I interpreted it: her husband Sean had said that Maggie wanted to get away from the Kitchen and that's why he took the job in Jersey. Why did she want to get away from the Kitchen so badly? To get away from her child molesting father. They move to Jersey and she develops cancer as a result of the local toxins being dumped. Had Matt never saved her father from being run over by the truck, she wouldn't have had the continuing need to get away from the kitchen and inevitably move to Jersey. So in her obsessive mind, it all came back to Matt.
That's how I read it at least. Am I the only one that thought that Quesada's portrayal of DD in issue 6 wasn't quite as 'hulkish' as it was earlier in the series? Outside of the superbuilt DD, I REALLY enjoyed Quesada's artwork.
I don't know that I can say that this was necessarily worth the 2 1/2 year wait from start to finish, but it was very well presented story. I'll most likely look into picking up the hardcover when it's released to add to the collection of nice DD hc's. Part of me hates being as entertained by this arc as I was...it just helps lead Quesada to believe that insane project delays are ok...argh
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Brilliant! 
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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vtsoxfan7
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 182
Location: The 'noke, VA
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pbblair
Flying Blind
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Terrible. Really. What did we learn here? That DD's origin is being retconned so that as a child, his act of heroism was saving a drunk child molester? This is about as satisfying as having Typhoid Mary be the girl that fell out a window. And the ending seems to be "my dad beat me, but at least he didn't molest me." I guess I was hoping for more, since the series is called "Father," after all. Having a lot of dads in the story doesn't count as good execution of a theme.
The red herrings were overused. Is this why we needed an extra issue? To distract us further? Not that the primary story was any good. I was having terrible flashbacks to the "Sir" issues from the 90s. I would rather have had a few panels that explained the actual story, since while we may be Sanitarian experts now, we are left with a ton of significant plot holes. Here's my only big question: WHO'S THE GUY BEING ROUGHED UP BY JACK? Maggie's dad? So does that mean that Shaun took his wife's surname?
And however Matt failed to notice that his past clients were all being killed is beyond me... and how does he know where Maggie's dad lives, and how does he know that' he's the guy he saved from the truck? Bah! Who cares? |
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| pbblair wrote: | | Here's my only big question: WHO'S THE GUY BEING ROUGHED UP BY JACK? |
Shaun's father, I believe. Maggie's Dad is the old guy who Matt saved in his origin.
Hope this makes sense! |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read any of Father and I've been reading this thread to try to determine whether or not I should bother (yeah, yeah, I'm also spoiling the crap out of the thing for myself but whatever).
Just so I'm clear though: is everyone actually saying that, in the end, it turns out that the guy Matt saved in his origin was actually a child molester? Like, the old man that Matt pushed out of the way of the run away truck? He was a child molester? Like, the guy who was almost hit by the truck that drops the little radioactive dealie? That guy turns out to be a child molester?
If this is, indeed, the case I call Typhoid-Mary-Hooker-Out-the-Window-style-BS.
Plus, is it just me or has child molesting among members of the MU gone up 3000% in the last couple years?
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So why can't you see the funny side?
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TheManWithoutFear
Fall From Grace
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 468
Location: Dunmore, PA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Oh please...
Like it's so far fetch'd that the guy that Matt saved wasn't flawed in anyway. This isn't anything near the Typhoid/Hooker connection. This guy didn't turn into one of the world's deadliest supervillains. He was a regular nobody which is why the story was good. The origin wasn't retconned it was branched off and expanded on. There's a difference.
Child Molesting in the MU... hmmm
Ultimate Spider-Man, no.
Ultimate X-Men, no.
Ultimates, no.
Ultimate Fantastic Four, no.
Captain America, no.
X-Factor, no.
Runaways, no.
Cable/Deadpool, no.
Hulk, no.
New Avengers, no...
I just can't seem to find a recent storyline in any of my marvel books about child molestation.
Oh, the Black Cat/Spider-Man Mini and Daredevil: Father. Child molestation is rampant. Maybe I just need to read more of the Marvel Universe.
Scratchin' the bottom and most likely just repeating other people's complaints whenever the topic "Child molestation" comes up. This was a good f'n book.
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Terrible. Really. What did we learn here? That DD's origin is being retconned so that as a child, his act of heroism was saving a drunk child molester? This is about as satisfying as having Typhoid Mary be the girl that fell out a window. |
I can't wait until Becky Blake starts killing people. I'm sure Joey Q, or some other chump, will come up with the brilliant idea that when "Mary", the hooker fell out the window, well, guess what?, she FELL ON a very able bodied Becky Blake!!! She will (somehow  ) connect it to Matt and start offing people at random, or maybe just hookers or whaterver. This is the definiton of a "crappy and unnecessary" add on.
rgj |
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