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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Re: The Bendis debate |
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| Dimetre wrote: |
It may not be as opinion based as you think. Through the millenia that people have been telling stories, certain things have been found to be true about the best stories. The best stories give the hero or heroes an interesting conflict or problem they have to solve. Sometimes these conflicts or problems are supplied by an antagonist. The bigger the problem or more threatening the antagonist, the more interesting -- and therefore better -- the story will be. I didn't just make this up. It's not my opinion. It's a widely regarded truth in the art of storytelling. |
Comon. So what are you saying? That because you took a first year english class your opinions are objective? Actually, I take that back because if you'd taken any english class at all you'd know that while there are traditional story telling models and techniques there is nothing even approaching the level of objective, science-like standards that you're implying exist.
Plus, how is it that everyone else (other than you and a handful of other people) didn't see how "bad" the story was. It's crazy. You're saying it's objectively bad but that just flies in the face of the fact that most people liked it. Here, try to follow me on this one. You're saying "there are objective standards of story telling that are based on people's experiences on what makes a good story". Now with Bendis everyone is saying "that was a good story". Still, you're saying "no, no, objective principles, based on what people think is a good story, actually dictate that even though people think this is a good story, they are wrong, it is not". It eats itself.
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Anyway JC, if you'd like to accuse me of taking something you typed out of context instead of admitting that you typed something you didn't mean, fine. But even you have to admit that you did type this:
| james castle wrote: | | Actually, I do. Explain to me how you fail to see Bendis' run as a landmark in the series. |
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What? This is out of context too. So much so that I don't even know what I'm saying. It starts "Actually, I do". Actually I do what? What am I talking about when I say this. I don't think you know what "out of context" means.
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So I did. I've pointed out in numerous ways how Bendis' stories are flawed, and I've even cited sales figures that steadily decreased during his time on the title. Those figures reflect the attitude of the comic-buying public more accurately than any critics you cite.
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The sales figures are meaningless. There are simply way too many unaccounted for factors. Plus, the differences reflected in the sales figures are never that extreme. It's not like the readerships cuts in half or anything.
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Perhaps, as Francesco pointed out, after the hype has passed, Bendis' stories on the book can be evaluated more clearly, and more people will disregard the "landmark" status that has been prematurely bestowed upon them. |
Doubt it.
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JC
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: The Bendis debate |
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| james castle wrote: | | What? This is out of context too. So much so that I don't even know what I'm saying. It starts "Actually, I do". Actually I do what? What am I talking about when I say this. |
Okay. I suppose you could have scrolled up, but here you go.
| james castle wrote: | | Dimetre wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | Bendis' run was among the best DD runs of all time. It's not even debateable. |
Actually, I'm sure I could debate it just fine. You want me to? |
Actually, I do. Explain to me how you fail to see Bendis' run as a landmark in the series. |
So I did.
Okay, JC. If you are enraptured by stories where the antagonists are revealed to be no threat at all, fantastic. If you feel honoured that you've been fed the same cliffhanger two issues in a row, fabulous. If you'd rather read about Leapfrog's son than Daredevil in a book called Daredevil, awesome. If you love the fact that Matt let an innocent man die when he could have done something to save him, Bendis is your man.
Beyond all that, Bendis' entire book revolved around Matt's fourth identity crisis. hylozoii says unmasking Daredevil makes Bendis' run a landmark. But a landmark is something that is going to have a lasting presence for the long term. Brubaker hasn't even been on the book for ten issues and he's made considerable headway into restoring the secret identity. I may have only read up to #50, but I don't think anything from Bendis' run is going to have a lasting effect in future DD stories. He'll get his secret identity back. Kingpin will get out of jail. (He had been in jail before.) Matt will probably get divorced and we'll probably never see Milla again. Richard Fisk may even still be alive.
When all is said and done, the only new thing he did was put Matt in jail, but then he left Brubaker to handle it. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, on November 9th you PM'ed me and said you were going to construct an argument against Bendis. At that time I wrote you back privately and said:
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Errrrr, okay, but just so you don't go all "doing something right or not doing it at all" like crazy (I know how long doing something "right" can take) I think it'd be a good idea to sort of define what we're arguing about.
The only point I was trying to make (or rather, the only point that I was just throwing out there as a fact) is that Bendis' run was very well received by critics and fans alike and that most people consider it to be one of the high water marks in the series.
What are you trying to argue? Are you honestly going to "prove" that Bendis' run was actually, contrary to everyone else's belief, bad? I mean, I'm not crazy, I remember reading reviews on aintitcool, newsarama and comicbookresources month after month in which Bendis was praised as doing something great. Heck, look at the thread on the board about favorite Bendis moments. How can you see a thread like that and then go "actually, suckers, you only think it was a ground breaking run, it actually sucked".
Look, if you didn't like Bendis, that's fine but you can't pretend that it wasn't an important and much praised run. Heck, I think Daredevil: Yellow is garbage but I appreciate that other people like it and that it is, to a large extent, a celebrated book.
And please, please, please don't go through a month by month sales analysis. To do so would be obviously, obviously meaningless.
All, that said, take you best shot. |
Given that, it is unbelievable to me that 1) you still went and wrote your opus and posted it as a purported "response" to my point and 2) you continue to refuse to acknowledge that all I've ever been saying is with regard to how Bendis' run was revieced as opposed to it's actual merit. Unbelievable.
So that's it. You obviously just don't get the distinction there. It's not that complex so I don't know what you're missing but you've missed it. And since this is now getting into crazy territory in which you're just screaming at me demanding I admit that something I didn't say was wrong I think it's time to just accept that you don't get it and stop responding to your crazy. So I will.
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | To recap: I will debate whether or not Bendis' run is generally regarded as a high water mark in DD comics. |
This is the final thing I have to say to you on this. At present it is regarded as a high water mark in DD comics, but by extremely devoted DD fans (like the people here) and some critics (who bewilder me.) I think over time the "landmark status" of the work will diminish, for the reasons I stated. I'll just say that Dark Knight Returns was hailed by a demographic outside of the traditional comic book fans at the time. Bendis' DD was not. From here we would have to get into the work's merit. If I can't discuss that, then it's pointless. That's all. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | To recap: I will debate whether or not Bendis' run is generally regarded as a high water mark in DD comics. |
This is the final thing I have to say to you on this. At present it is regarded as a high water mark in DD comics, but by extremely devoted DD fans (like the people here) and some critics (who bewilder me.) |
Well, it seems to me that the "devoted DD fans" (fan boys, if you will) were the some of only people who didn't like Bendis' run that much. I have no doubt that this board has a much higher percentage of people calling for the return of a swashbuckling DD than there are in the general public. In this way, the people on this board have been harder on Bendis' run than the average comic reader.
While on that subject, way back near the beginning of this thread you seemed to imply that the people on this board were more critical of the movie than the general public. Implying that the movie was in some way a success or popular. It wasn't. Odd that you seemed to get it backwards. This board is relatively anti-Bendis and pro-movie whereas the rest of the world is pro-Bendis and anti-movie.
Anyways, it wasn't "some critics" that liked Bendis' run, it was the vast majority of critics. There were a few that didn't like the run but by and large critics were behind it.
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I think over time the "landmark status" of the work will diminish, for the reasons I stated. |
You know what? Maybe. You may be right. Maybe, five years from now everyone will look back and go "meh, it wasn't that good". Heck, maybe I'll look back and feel the same way. Unfortuneatly there's no way to tell right now. So, see you back here in 5 years and we'll sort this out.
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I'll just say that Dark Knight Returns was hailed by a demographic outside of the traditional comic book fans at the time. Bendis' DD was not. |
Well, I recall Entertainment Weekly mentioning Bendis' DD a couple times.
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Well, it seems to me that the "devoted DD fans" (fan boys, if you will) were the some of only people who didn't like Bendis' run that much. I have no doubt that this board has a much higher percentage of people calling for the return of a swashbuckling DD than there are in the general public. In this way, the people on this board have been harder on Bendis' run than the average comic reader. |
Really? I have always found the exact opposite. As I said earlier, it seemed that Stephan and I were the only ones who had anything negative to say about Bendis' run.
| james castle wrote: | | While on that subject, way back near the beginning of this thread you seemed to imply that the people on this board were more critical of the movie than the general public. Implying that the movie was in some way a success or popular. It wasn't. Odd that you seemed to get it backwards. This board is relatively anti-Bendis and pro-movie whereas the rest of the world is pro-Bendis and anti-movie. |
That's the exact opposite of what I said. This is what I said.
| Dimetre wrote: | | The regulars on this site are not representative of the moviegoing public either. The positive response to the movie on this board differs strongly from the comments on the Daredevil page at imdb.com. |
| james castle wrote: | | Anyways, it wasn't "some critics" that liked Bendis' run, it was the vast majority of critics. There were a few that didn't like the run but by and large critics were behind it. |
If I say "some" it's only because the only critics I am aware of are the ones Kuljit links to from this site. The majority of those I will admit love Bendis. They LUUUUV him. Bewilders me.
| james castle wrote: | | Well, I recall Entertainment Weekly mentioning Bendis' DD a couple times. |
Must have slipped by me, and I read Entertainment Weekly quite regularly. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Well, it seems to me that the "devoted DD fans" (fan boys, if you will) were the some of only people who didn't like Bendis' run that much. [. . . ]In this way, the people on this board have been harder on Bendis' run than the average comic reader. |
In my experience, this is an accurate general assumption of devoted fans (of any superhero) who post online versus the general public. I've found many posters online who cannot stop bashing Geoff Johns, yet not only is he extremely loved by critics and the comic public (based on sales), I think he is the finest comic writer in mainstream comics. Also, readers are eating up Wolverine Origins (sales) but almost no one posting online has anything good to say about it.
More to the point, the more a person is a hardcore fan of a character/title, the more they will spot any mischaracterizations, continuity errors, etc., and dislike the writer for these problems. At the same time, some of the most adventurous and succesful writers are those who are most prone to such errors. (E.g. Bendis, Millar, Loeb, Ellis, etc.)
...all this leads me to amazement that Frank Miller is so popular, even among hardcore fans, as he is the king of mischaracterization, continuity errors and sloppy retcons. 
Maybe by the time All-Star Batman and Robin begins to sink in, he'll be exiled to film. 
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. At the same time I think it also has a lot to do with how you approach comics in general. Lots of DD fans didn't like the Bendis stuff. To me, a very similar situation was Morrison's run on X-Men. At the time the fans freaked out about it. But as far as I'm concerned it's one of the greatest runs on X-Men ever (well, at least the beginning (well, and the end really)). The X-Men are very near and dear to my heart as well and, yeah, sometimes it's tough seeing your favorites be revamped so radically but, in the end, if you're sort of open minded about continuity and whatnot you should be able to push past all that stuff and see the greatness of the underlying stories.
(I will note that time has been quite kind to Morrison's work. I think the same will be true of Bendis on DD).
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EightiesCartoon
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 177
Location: Bathurst
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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To quote High Fidelity:
"How can it be wrong to state a preference?"
Dimetre isn't a fan of Bendis, Castle is.
Case closed.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| EightiesCartoon wrote: | To quote High Fidelity:
"How can it be wrong to state a preference?"
Dimetre isn't a fan of Bendis, Castle is.
Case closed. |
That's exactly what the argument wasn't about.
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JC
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EightiesCartoon
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 177
Location: Bathurst
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | EightiesCartoon wrote: | To quote High Fidelity:
"How can it be wrong to state a preference?"
Dimetre isn't a fan of Bendis, Castle is.
Case closed. |
That's exactly what the argument wasn't about. |
I don’t mean to speak on your behalf Dimetre, but yes according to what I’ve read this is the essence of the argument, James.
Okay, there was fanboy opinion thrown in, the opinion of the general movie going public and the critics. Fine, you were merely outlining the fact that Bendis was critically acclaimed by the majority.
And?
Can we agree that in essence the argument stemmed from the following statement?:
“Bendis' run is widely regarded as a major achievement. You don't like it? Fine. That's cool. But to pretend that it isn't something worth acknowledging as something celebrated is just childish.”
So Dimetre won’t acknowledge Bendis’ run as something to celebrate. So what? I didn’t mind Bendis’ run per se, but I won’t ‘celebrate’ it - his arcs had faults like any other creator (the likes of which have been outlined in this post).
As you say, fine. That’s cool. That’s his opinion. So why barrage him for not wanting to acknowledge Bendis’ run as something worthwhile just as the majority did?
Viva la minority, I say.
And if this, by some strange lapse on my part, wasn't the point of your argument, you need to be more concise and consistent in your posts brother
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Blind Alley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 292
Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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I think JC's point was : you can like or dislike Bendis' run on DD, but you have to admit that it was a well received run among the critics.
When you read Silverbulletcomicbooks, the Fourthrail, Comixtreme, Popcultureshock, they all had a positive opinion on Bendis' DD.
And on these websites, they're often more than one critic.
So, I think that based on all the positive reviews Bendis-Maleev 's run received, a comic fan could say : "If you want to read good Daredevil comics, you should check (make the list) AND also Bendis-Maleev's run".
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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No. No. No. No. No.
Let's look at the bit of my post that you quoted:
| james castle wrote: |
Bendis' run is widely regarded as a major achievement. You don't like it? Fine. That's cool. But to pretend that it isn't something worth acknowledging as something celebrated is just childish. |
And then you say:
| EightiesCartoon wrote: |
So Dimetre won’t acknowledge Bendis’ run as something to celebrate. |
And then, unbelievably you say:
| EightiesCartoon wrote: |
And if this, by some strange lapse on my part, wasn't the point of your argument, you need to be more concise and consistent in your posts brother |
Strange lapse? Strange lapse? You somehow equate "something celebrated" with "something to celebrate". That's not a strange lapse. That's an enormous lapse. It changes the entire character of what I was saying. I said Bendis' run was something celebrated. Like, for example, X-Mas. Everyone would agree that X-Mas is, in fact, celebrated. I did not say that it was something to celebrate, which would imply that people should celebrate it. I don't care whether or not anyone celebrates X-Mas or not or liked Bendis' run or not.
So, yeah, you missed the point of my argument entirely. And it's not me that needs to be more concise and consistent with my posts. You just need to learn how to read.
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | You just need to learn how to read. |
May I remind you JC of how you completely misread my comment about the perception of the movie on this board? Scroll up if you forgot.
Pot, meet kettle.
Couldn't resist.  |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | You just need to learn how to read. |
May I remind you JC of how you completely misread my comment about the perception of the movie on this board? Scroll up if you forgot.
Pot, meet kettle.
Couldn't resist. |
Ouch.
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