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Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
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The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Hey, McCartney lyrics, great. Can anyone join in...
Umm...
Simply Having A Wonderful Christmastime.
The Choir of Children Sing Their Song
They've Practiced All Year Long.
Ding Dong. (Ding Dong.) Ding Dong (Ding Dong) Ding Dong (Ding Dong) Ding Dong Dong Dong Dong DongDong Dong.
Ah, that's better. |
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Slim Sandy
Flying Blind
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | Hey, McCartney lyrics, great. Can anyone join in...
Umm...
Simply Having A Wonderful Christmastime.
The Choir of Children Sing Their Song
They've Practiced All Year Long.
Ding Dong. (Ding Dong.) Ding Dong (Ding Dong) Ding Dong (Ding Dong) Ding Dong Dong Dong Dong DongDong Dong.
Ah, that's better. |
....i hate that song so much |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | Look, I'll admit that Chichester lost me with Fall From Grace and the subsequet Jack Batlin' stuff. But, still, the stuff he did before was just incredible. In fact, issues #292-300 (culminating with Last Rites) is as good as the Miller stuff. In fact, D.G. Chichester is an original. Why? Just about every writer post-Miller has basically written Matt/DD as a victim of his circumstances. A reactionary character as opposed to a pro-active one. It started with Born Again. Matt at the mercy of KP. Nocienti (and I love her, I really do) had Matt being led around by the aftermath of BA and, then, the manipulation of Typhoid. So much so he leaves Hell's Kitchen and goes to Hell and then spontaneously loses his memory (in a great story). DeMattes turned Matt into a victim of split personalities. Smith had Matt all drugged up ending up helpless in the Church basement in a cheap Born Again half assed moment. Even Bendis had a reactionary Matt under the thumb of the outing. His one proactive moment in King of Hell's Kitchen was due to yet another mental breakdown. And, the promising Brubaker, who most of us agree has exceeded all expectations has Matt being led (manipulated like a chess novice) around by the nose (to the other side of the
world). |
Ah, but we have yet to see Matt's full response. 
| rgj wrote: | | D. G. Chichester has been the ONLY writer to really have Matt in total control (#292-300). And, it was amazing, refreshing and ORIGINAL charcterization. |
Well, if I were to nit-pick, I'd say this is only the case if you are talking about post-Born-Again-DD, and you ignore Kesel, Kelly, Quesada, and a couple others. Still, Chichester is servely underrated and I can't imagine the work he would be producing if he were still writing comics, today.
| rgj wrote: | | Under Chichester Matt was strong, confident and not a victim. Truly original. And, a hell of a read. And, as I said before, Chichester wrote Matt's senses better than any writer ever. No, I'm not talking here about the "range or extent" of his senses like the recent back and forth I had with Brubaker. I'm talking about the narrative (sometimes in first person) Chichester would write conveying how Matt "saw" the world. With Chichester you NEVER forgot Matt was blind. You were burdened with it. And, you also understood how he sensed the world better than anyone on Earth. Somtimes at the price of pain. |
Agreed!
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Taskmaster
Flying Blind
Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I agree Chichester/Weeks deserved to be there. 292-300 were on par with Miller and very much the sequel to his run. Half of the problem with Chicester's later work was the art too. I'll welcome him & Weeks back any time. Has to be both 
But this topic is about the current issue an' I loved it!
Has anyone here ever tried skipping reading a month or two just to be able to read more than one issue at once? It's terribly hard but it's also torturous to wait between 5 or 6 month-long cliffhangers. |
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battlin'J
Flying Blind
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Right where I need to be
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Very good issue. I am so glad the rumors that it would be Karen Page were unfounded. I also did not expect the reveal of Vanessa Fisk would work as well as it did. I will learn to trust Brubaker more in the future. 
I really enjoyed her telling of her viewpoint of the DD/Kingpin feud as someone who as a result of these two has lost it all.
Some good insight into Murdock by Vanessa:
"One thing to always remember about Matt Murdock is he's selfish, above all else...he just doesn't realize it most of the time."
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I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| battlin' J wrote: | Some good insight into Murdock by Vanessa:
"One thing to always remember about Matt Murdock is he's selfish, above all else...he just doesn't realize it most of the time." |
You think that is good insight? You think "selfish above all else" is a good way to define Matt Murdock? Are you serious?
rgj |
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battlin'J
Flying Blind
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Right where I need to be
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps "good" is not the word I should have chosen. "Interesting" may be better. However, one could say there is something to her comment. Much of what Matt has done, especially of late, has been for more selfish reasons rather than purely altruistic. He did break out of prison, run off to Europe, beat bad guys left and right, and hunt the mastermind (Vanessa) all out of revenge for Foggy's death. Basicallly, they hurt him so he wants to hurt them back. Beating on them makes Matt feel better. He is not doing it for the good of society. It may be a by-product, but not his main goal.
Which is a very selfish act.
_________________
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day
-Douglas Adams |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Battlin' J wrote: | Much of what Matt has done, especially of late, has been for more selfish reasons rather than purely altruistic. He did break out of prison, run off to Europe, beat bad guys left and right, and hunt the mastermind (Vanessa) all out of revenge for Foggy's death. Basicallly, they hurt him so he wants to hurt them back. Beating on them makes Matt feel better. He is not doing it for the good of society. It may be a by-product, but not his main goal.
Which is a very selfish act. |
But, Vanessa seems to be characterizing Matt as "selfish" as a gererality, not "as of late." Matt has done what any other hero would have done in his place, including "enjoying" on some level fighting back when someone (*assumed*) killed a loved one. If Matt were a truly selfish, renvenged filled man he would have killed Vanessa. He doesn't seem selfish to me.
You know, if you think about it, it's amazingly strange how Matt turns heaven and hell over to find Foggy's "killer" yet, Matt did absolutely nothing to find Bullseye after he killed Karen. Of course, Bru is absolutley right and logical here, Joey Q, on the other hand, basking in his self indulgent "glory" of GUARDIAN DEVIL, and his editor in chimp duties is a monkey.
rgj |
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fox_limbo
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: |
...You know, if you think about it, it's amazingly strange how Matt turns heaven and hell over to find Foggy's "killer" yet, Matt did absolutely nothing to find Bullseye after he killed Karen. Of course, Bru is absolutley right and logical here...
rgj |
This is very true, rgj.
I've always had a very, very difficult time with the handling of Matt's mourning and moving on directly after Karen's death.
Sure, Matt (*ahem*) may have had a "nervous breakdown" which, as Bendis pointed out, goes as far back as dealing with (or the lack-there of) Karen's violent death at the hands of Bullseye.
(which, as we all know, according to the publicized "pillow-talk" between Joe Quesada and Kevin Smith, saying everything would be spelled out in "Target"; but given Kevin's chronic difficulty with juggling dead-lines and his ego, the fact that Matt's mourning of Karen's death continued to be a hole in the Daredevil mythology until Brian Michael Bendis addressed it, sometime later... with the time that past, the revelations of Matt's "nervous breakdown" and the first conflict with Bullseye since her death, only came off as anti-climactic, at best... but all this has been discussed before)
The fact that Matt's recent acts come off as selfish (i.e. getting even with people because of Foggy's "death") is because we, as readers, know that Foggy's still alive. If we didn't know that fact, Matt's actions would be justified, at the very least to most reader's eyes. His actions puctuate the emotional response that greatly lacked in his dealing with Karen's death (due to either continuity or editorial concerns, or even both). Matt is responding to what he believes is the death of a loved one. Lest we forget, Matt tends to have a bit of a temper, from time-to-time. And his reaction to everything is an apt illustration of that.
To say Matt is selfish given his recent actions is arguable, at best. His actions, I believe, is based off his struggle with moral ambiguity while in prison. Now, after he is sprung from prison, he is still carrying out. He is lashing out in knee-jerk vandetta, similar to the brand of justice that was dealt inside the prison walls. The moral ambiguity is still present as Matt walks the streets (even if it is in Europe... would it be any different in, say, Hell's Kitchen? I doubt it. Matt had not had an opportunity to distance himself and properly examine his actions and the situation. But we will see as this arc ends with the next issue, as Matt stalks the streets of New York, after coming back from Europe, won't we?) Matt is locked in his own moral and emotional purgatory and he is lashing out. Period.
Even though, as a long-time Daredevil reader, it is not very surprising, there is one more detail that adds to the layered complexity of Matt Murdock's struggles. Matt is still in love with Karen. This point had been brought up (by Ed Brubaker, via Vanessa Fisk) due to his smelling / interpreting Karen's scent from Lilly's perfume that was given to her to lure Matt Murdock deeper into this web of intrigue. Perhaps, the memory of Karen's scent and the emotional recollection of her death has helped fuel the fire, and that has added to Matt's ferocity.
The detail of Matt's apparent love of Karen will (finally) be addressed in (possibly DD# 93, but most certainly) DD# 94, it seems. And I couldn't be happier. The (ongoing) joke of Matt's seemingly inability to properly mourn Karen's death will be fully brought out into the fore-front and to really and truly deal with all his pent up frustrations that lead to that personally shattering moment in his life (or, at least, one can only hope). |
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Sandman
Flying Blind
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I will admit up front that I am not what one would consider a long-time Daredevil reader. As such, I am unfamiliar with much of Matt's past. There seems to be a HUGE debate going on now with whether or not Matt is as "selfish" as Vanessa claims he is.
The only piece of evidence I want to point towards is obviously a recent one, but it's the one that is central to the whole Bendis run. -Matt simply refused to give up the dual identity. When first outed his decision was not to come clean, but instead to sue the newspaper for all it was worth. Ben Urich was sickened by this tactic. Foggy was on board with this idea at first, but even he began to question how far you take this in court. While it does not go into Matt's history, this is a glaring case of selfishness if ever there was one. So I can see Vanessa's point at calling him selfish.
Which leads to the whole point of Vanessa's talk with him. Matt flat out turned down Vanessa's offer. But do you think for one minute that he won't run back and snatch up the pieces of his life even though she's responsible for it through murder? She knew that Matt would run back in a heartbeat. She could lull him into a false sense of security and then use Foggy to turn the table on him yet. -All because she knows how unwilling Matt is to give up his life as a lawyer. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: Selfishness |
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| Sandman wrote: | | The only piece of evidence I want to point towards is obviously a recent one, but it's the one that is central to the whole Bendis run. -Matt simply refused to give up the dual identity. When first outed his decision was not to come clean, but instead to sue the newspaper for all it was worth. |
In my opinion, Bendis' portrayal of Matt is the least moral in Daredevil history. I would have had little difficulty with Matt's unwillingness to surrender his secret identity, but then to try to capitalize on the lie? I had never seen Matt do anything like that before. As it turned out, Bendis always thought that Matt was an "asshole."
Bendis pointed to an example from the Frank Miller era immediately following the death of Elektra, when Matt orchestrated the ruin of Heather Glenn in order to sway her to marry him. That is obviously a selfish act, but because his first love had just been killed two issues earlier, he was not in a good headspace and would have done anything to avoid being alone.
The only example of selfishness I can think of is Matt's repeated abandonment of Foggy at the law office to go have an adventure. Matt comes off as particularly selfish when business is down, leaving Foggy to shoulder the entire burden. Volume 1 #11 and #221 are particularly harsh, especially the latter which shows Matt sitting in a gondola in Venice while Foggy's scraping away at the office.
I never thought selfishness was one of Matt's dominant character traits. In fact I don't know how someone can be a superhero if they are selfish. If someone is willing to put themselves in the line of fire for the greater good, they can't be selfish. Unless, of course, we are talking of the aforementioned "as of late" Bendis period. Maybe Vanessa had been reading those recently and couldn't find her earlier issues. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | battlin' J wrote: | Some good insight into Murdock by Vanessa:
"One thing to always remember about Matt Murdock is he's selfish, above all else...he just doesn't realize it most of the time." |
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Sounds like something Bendis would say. 
BTW, I completely disagree. Vanessa's statement is very, very false.
_________________
"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I concur, Forrest. Matt has shortcomings, but he is not egocentric or self-absorbed. If anything, he doesn't focus enough attention on his concerns and needs. Why Vanessa made this assertion is beyond me. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephan wrote: | | I concur, Forrest. Matt has shortcomings, but he is not egocentric or self-absorbed. If anything, he doesn't focus enough attention on his concerns and needs. Why Vanessa made this assertion is beyond me. |
Exactly. Even writers like Bendis show this very clearly with stories like Decalogue. Most of Matt's personal problems can be brought back to the fact that all night long, he is patrolling Hell's Kitchen to protect innocents and bring justice to the guilty. He's not a cop, he doesn't get paid and he even gets arrested for what he does. Yet, he still does it even in conditions like in the missing year, for the people of Hell's Kitchen. ...I could go on forever on this topic.
BTW, I don't think that Vanessa's statement reflects Brubaker's thoughts. Her statement was just an insight into her opinion of Matt.
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Indeed, Forrest. Matt knowingly endangers himself (and his kith and kin) for the betterment of society. Not only in his Daredevil guise, but as an attorney. Matt was targeted by Silke (originally) not because of his DD exploits, but rather because of his actions as an attorney. Matt incurs risks on a daily basis, entirely for the benefit of others (unlike the so-called "Heroes for Hire," and the handsomely compensated Avengers). Matt has faults. He is a misogynist (this should be explored further). He can be narcissistic at times. And he can be sanctimonious and self-righteous ("a moral bully," as Glorianna once stated). But he is not self-seeking. |
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