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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Well, all those who have always thought to Elektra as "Miller's exclusive property" should be happy now. Now that she's dead (provided that she stays that way), no one will ever write her again. |
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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See, the funny thing about this is that it's done to "get people talking."
"Ooh, who cares, let's just hype the crap out of it, and either way people will talk about it and we'll win."
...And we are talking about it, so in that insignificant aspect, it works. Trouble is, they equate "getting people talking" with "making money". I submit one doesn't have to follow the other. In fact, we're talking about the fact we won't buy it. I'm sure there's a silent minority on this board that's lurking; people that'll buy this book when it comes out. I can't imagine that type of person, though. Never mind that the people who still read New Avengers (surely some MUST exist) will buy it no matter what the solicit says.
Here's a vicious cycle: sales drop. Need hype. Hype. Hype doesn't pay off. People sour to the hype. Sales drop. Need more hype.
Talk about the easy way out. What's easier, making a quality product, or incessantly hyping a crappy one on a monthly basis?
...Only problem is you need a backbone to do it.
I'm a firm believer that genius takes vision, guts, and determination. Lazy work like this lacks all three. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: |
Anyway, seriously, anyone want to give me more advice on DC comics that are worth checking out. |
Well, since you asked. 
New stuff I read, in order of quality/accesibility  :
Justice Society of America 1-4 (current)
Checkmate
Green Lantern (current volume, starting with Rebirth)
Jeff Smith's Shazam: Monster Society of Evil
52
Green Arrow (start with #60)
Flash #9 onward (#1-8 were the definition of terrible)
Manhunter (start with #26)
Less recent stuff to check out in TPB:
Gotham Central
Rucka's Adventures of Superman
Johns's Teen Titans (especially the early TPB vols)
Outsiders (")
Identity Crisis
P.S. I LOVE all the above mentioned books! If anyone is curious about the style, feel, etc. of any of these, let me know and I'll give you my 2 cents. (Generally, you can tell by the writer. E.g. if you like Brubaker, you'll like Rucka's DC, including Checkmate, Gotham Central, etc.)
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Well, all those who have always thought to Elektra as "Miller's exclusive property" should be happy now. Now that she's dead (provided that she stays that way), no one will ever write her again |
HaHa! Are you serious? Do you think a little thing like being dead is going to prevent crappy writers from writing more crappy Elektra stories (heck, even good writers like Bendis, from writing crappy Elektra stories--which he's done)? No, the next Elektra story following the Avengers one will be a crappy story on how Elektra comes back.  Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week, but one day some bafoon will give it a try once the Editor In Chimp, Joey Q., gives the okay.
"Do it! Now, where is that last bagel?"
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rgj |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, but not before other three or four "sensational -no hype!- events", like, who knows, something on the line of "Wolverine is a woman!" or "Uncle Ben is Ronin!" or "Franklin Richards is not Mr Fantastic's son, it's the other way around".
| Quote: | Talk about the easy way out. What's easier, making a quality product, or incessantly hyping a crappy one on a monthly basis?
...Only problem is you need a backbone to do it.
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That's the point of the problem with Marvel. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | "Wolverine is a woman!" or "Uncle Ben is Ronin!" or "Franklin Richards is not Mr Fantastic's son, it's the other way around".
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I would gladly read any one of those stories over one about Echo killing Elektra.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt that this is going to be the big deal you guys are anticipating. I'm sure even if Echo stabs her, the Hand will all resurrect her within a few pages, or somebody else will (like somebody from the Chaste, or little baby Karen). Echo got killed in New Avengers #27, but Elektra ordered the Hand to resurrect her, and they did. Which makes you wonder why Elektra bothered to kill her in the first place. Awful comic.
Anyway, Elektra is not going anywhere, and if she does, she'll only be gone for a few pages. You guys are gonna love it! |
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Meador
Flying Blind
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 97
Location: COLORADO
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | rgj wrote: |
Anyway, seriously, anyone want to give me more advice on DC comics that are worth checking out. |
Well, since you asked.
New stuff I read, in order of quality/accesibility :
Justice Society of America 1-4 (current)
Checkmate
Green Lantern (current volume, starting with Rebirth)
Jeff Smith's Shazam: Monster Society of Evil
52
Green Arrow (start with #60)
Flash #9 onward (#1-8 were the definition of terrible)
Manhunter (start with #26)
Less recent stuff to check out in TPB:
Gotham Central
Rucka's Adventures of Superman
Johns's Teen Titans (especially the early TPB vols)
Outsiders (")
Identity Crisis
P.S. I LOVE all the above mentioned books! If anyone is curious about the style, feel, etc. of any of these, let me know and I'll give you my 2 cents. (Generally, you can tell by the writer. E.g. if you like Brubaker, you'll like Rucka's DC, including Checkmate, Gotham Central, etc.) |
Just to put in my two cents. After the Death of Cap and the Civil war mess, I cut Iron Man, Hulk, Iron Man Hypervelocity, Fantastic Four, Black Panther, Moon Knight and after the last Ultimates 2 I will be dropping that also. I am waiting until JMS leaves Spider-man and then dropping that, and I will give Captain America another issue to see if I am dropping it. I am keeping Daredevil on my pull list, but other than those everything I am getting now is DC.
I recommend
Action comics Starting with Johns and Donner's run.
Green Arrow
Green Lantern, like Forrest wrote, start with the mini series Rebirth. This is fast becoming one of my favorite titles.
Flash the Fastest Man Alive, starting with #9. Also, one of my favorite runs ever is Geoff Johns run on the Flash. Hard to find and expensive but a fantastic run.
All Star Superman, sure it is always delayed but it is a great read.
Justice League of America
Shazam and the Monster Society of Evil
Other titles I am getting but don't know if I would say they are worth looking into are,
Trials of Shazam- I am interested to see where this is going. I like Captain Marvel (DC) and so little comes out on him that I am buying this. There is more to this title but I don't want to give it away.
Aquaman-the butt of so many jokes but again, I want to see where this is going. Sci Fi writer Tad Williams is coming on at #50 so I will be giving it a little longer.
Batman and Detective Comics- A lot of people are really digging Morrison on Batman and Dini on Detective but they are not wowing me.
Superman confidential-I like Darwyn Cookes writing, but again, delays.
Superman
I agree with Forrests pick of Identity Crisis and Rucka's Adventures of Superman. I haven't read the others. I just finished Darwyn Cookes "DC: New Frontiers" and I loved it. Have you read this Forrest? Did you like it? It took awhile to grow on me but by the end I was really into it.
Anyway, Other than Daredevil I am pretty much done with Marvel for now. I am sure I'll be back someday but for now I need a break from this whole mess. I am sure they are making money on this Civil War and the fall out and more power to them but I need a change.
Eric
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"One must think like a hero to merely behave like a decent human being." |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Meador wrote: |
Just to put in my two cents. After the Death of Cap and the Civil war mess, I cut Iron Man, Hulk, Iron Man Hypervelocity, Fantastic Four, Black Panther, Moon Knight and after the last Ultimates 2 I will be dropping that also. I am waiting until JMS leaves Spider-man and then dropping that, and I will give Captain America another issue to see if I am dropping it. I am keeping Daredevil on my pull list, but other than those everything I am getting now is DC.
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Have faith in Brubaker's Cap. I was going to drop this one but the man is a genius and Uncanny X-Men is the ONLY time I have not been completely impressed with his work (including DC titles like Catwoman, Gotham Central, etc.). After 25 issues, his Cap is in my top 10 favorite runs ever. I've been with his volume since #1, I have loved every issue and at this point, I think it would be silly to drop it.
However, I agree with dropping the bulk of Marvel. The only Marvel I pick up is Brubaker's work and Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.
| Meador wrote: | | I just finished Darwyn Cookes "DC: New Frontiers" and I loved it. Have you read this Forrest? |
I LOVE New Frontier! This is similar to Marvels (the Busiek mini) in that both newbies and veterans will love it for very different reasons. It's a classic origin of many timeless characters, all at once. Read this, people!
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Acerbus
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Meador wrote: |
Anyway, Other than Daredevil I am pretty much done with Marvel for now. I am sure I'll be back someday but for now I need a break from this whole mess. I am sure they are making money on this Civil War and the fall out and more power to them but I need a change.
Eric |
Now, now. A few editorial decisions that you don't agree with are no reason to read profoundly bad DC comics. There's a reason they're not making as much money as Marvel right now, and it's not because their 'integrity' is intact and they're taking the sales high road. The fact is, they're all about gimmicky events ("52") and enormous inter-title crossovers with no discernable purpose ("Infinite Crisis") and annoying high-priced Michael Turner variants ("Justice League of putting Batman in Outer-Space thus ruining the character"). The difference is that everyone is still so clueless about what's really changed at the end of Infinite Crisis (Due to 52, which really has explained very little) that the forum boys can't whine and complain just yet.
Instead of reading awful comics like Trials of Shazam, pick up X-Factor, which is a killer read. Or read the new Jeph Loeb / Simone Bianchi Wolverine run which is absolutely fantastic. Or better yet, Dark Tower. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Acerbus wrote: | | Meador wrote: |
Anyway, Other than Daredevil I am pretty much done with Marvel for now. I am sure I'll be back someday but for now I need a break from this whole mess. I am sure they are making money on this Civil War and the fall out and more power to them but I need a change.
Eric |
Now, now. A few editorial decisions that you don't agree with are no reason to read profoundly bad DC comics. There's a reason they're not making as much money as Marvel right now, and it's not because their 'integrity' is intact and they're taking the sales high road. The fact is, they're all about gimmicky events ("52") and enormous inter-title crossovers with no discernable purpose ("Infinite Crisis") and annoying high-priced Michael Turner variants ("Justice League of putting Batman in Outer-Space thus ruining the character"). The difference is that everyone is still so clueless about what's really changed at the end of Infinite Crisis (Due to 52, which really has explained very little) that the forum boys can't whine and complain just yet.
Instead of reading awful comics like Trials of Shazam, pick up X-Factor, which is a killer read. Or read the new Jeph Loeb / Simone Bianchi Wolverine run which is absolutely fantastic. Or better yet, Dark Tower. |
Ah, I was wondering when the baseless fanboy rantings were going to show up. And with bold no less. I don't think a single critic out there would call DC's output "profoundly bad". Make fun of Infinite Crisis and 52 all you want you just can't escape the fact that those two were actual "events" when compared to the train wreck of Civil War.
I actually don't read any DC comics other than all the Vertigo I can afford and I actually feel like I'm missing out.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Acerbus wrote: |
Now, now. A few editorial decisions that you don't agree with are no reason to read profoundly bad DC comics. There's a reason they're not making as much money as Marvel right now, and it's not because their 'integrity' is intact and they're taking the sales high road. |
Does that even deserve further response?
If you have ever listened to pop music or watched reality television, you'd know that quality and sales are not always directly proportional in entertainment. In fact, they are often inversely proportional.
...no offense, but I honestly can't tell if you are joking, Tony Snow, or both.
Seriously, I respect your difference of opinion, no matter how different that opinion may be.
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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P.S. 52 = gimmicky? Here I thought it was the exact opposite, with the in depth character development, complex plot, accurate continuity and characterization, virtually no tie-ins, genuine writing talent, etc.
...Wait. Here's the test: Would you consider Civil War gimmicky?
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | I doubt that this is going to be the big deal you guys are anticipating. |
Nobody will disagree with you. That's the point of this thread.
It WON'T be a big deal. The hype's never worth it.
Although nobody's anticipating a big deal, I think. We're anticipating crap. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Stanley wrote: | | It WON'T be a big deal. The hype's never worth it. |
90% of the time, I agree. However, the creator does play a role.
For example, prior to the release of Cap #25, Brubaker hyped it subtly in a previous issue (the letters page of #24) and his myspace blog. His hyped turned out to definitely be accurate as the only claims I can recall from him are
1) The biggest Cap story he has ever told
2) Everyone who's anyone will want a copy of #25
3) #25 will go into multiple printings
I don't remember him saying it would be the story of the decade, change the Marvel universe forever, etc. (Of course, maybe I just didn't see such statements from him but I'd like to think he never said them in the first place.) Likewise, I don't recall him over hyping the return of Bucky. In summary, he is a writer who lets his work speak for itself, while still trying to give the fans a head up.
Similarly, Identity Crisis is the only time I'd heard Johns hype a book that didn't really live up to it. Every other time in recent memory (new JSA volume, Green Lantern, etc.), the hype has been accurate.
I'd extent this list of good hype sources to Rucka, BKV and most indie creators.
Creators like Millar and Bendis are on the exact opposite extreme. For them, the more hype --> the less actual substance in the book. See, when a better writer (e.g. Brubaker, Johns, etc.) takes on a big event (e.g. Cap #25, 52, etc.), he/she obviously puts fourth intense effort to ensure that the story is worthy of the event. The story tells the event.
Writers like Bendis and Millar let the event tell the story. How much substance really existed in House of M, Civil War, Avengers Disassembled, etc.? At the same time, both writers can tell world class stories when they are not using a big event as a creative crutch. E.g. Ultimates, Jinx, Alias, etc. When they set out to tell a good story, they do just that. When they set out to tell an event, that's all you get.
It's like pornography. There is no story because people are not buying it for the story, so why include it? House of M, Civil War, etc. were basically pornos. All I really got out of these stories was the brief spoiler(s) of what happened and the how or why seemed like a footnote. After House of M, I didn't care more for mutants, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, etc. I was indifferent to characters because they seemed almost inconsequential to the event at the end. Likewise with Civil War because Iron Man, Reed Richards, Spidey, etc., didn't come across like actual characters but more like objects to fill placeholders for the event.
In contrast, when I read GL: Rebirth, 52, etc., I come away caring about the characters and mythos far more than I did before. I am encouraged to read old TPBs with these characters. After 52, I became a fan of the Question, Dr. Magnus, etc.
It's all about that George Lucas quote ~"A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing." (This was long before episode 1. ) Bendis writes special effects without the story --> events. That is why this story will not live up to the hype.
Conversely, with worldclass storytellers behind Countdown, like Dini and Giffen, this story will live up to the hype.
My final thought: If Brubaker, Rucka, Johns, etc. would have written Civil War, the story would have lived up to the hype.
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