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rgj's gonna love this (SPOILERS)
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge

Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject:

Forrest wrote:

It's like pornography. There is no story because people are not buying it for the story, so why include it? House of M, Civil War, etc. were basically pornos.

Wow. I mean, I agree with your overall point, but...just wow.

...Also, I buy pornography for the music.

MercifulAvatar
Playing to the Camera

Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 117
Location: NEO, US

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject:

Forrest wrote:

It's like pornography. There is no story because people are not buying it for the story, so why include it?

Good analogy. It's also like a porno in that I feel slightly ashamed that I read the first two issues. Very Happy

Civil Why is about making money. I know that companies are about making money, I'm a corporate jackal through and through, but you'd think Marvel could at least try to maintain a modicum of self respect while they stoke their revenue engines. They have the talent (both artistic and editorial) to make it so.

Apparently, they don't feel the need. This hardly makes them unique in the business world; rather, just sad and pathetic.

Certain worn out porn stars come to mind.
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Acerbus
Flying Blind

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject:

Forrest wrote:

P.S. 52 = gimmicky? Here I thought it was the exact opposite, with the in depth character development, complex plot, accurate continuity and characterization, virtually no tie-ins, genuine writing talent, etc.

...Wait. Here's the test: Would you consider Civil War gimmicky?

"Hey kids! It's 52! A weekly series featuring F-list characters you have no reason to care about! We'll turn Steel into a character that actually works (see: Colossus) by giving him steel skin that he change into at will, which makes him taller and stronger.

When we run out of ideas, we'll have exploitative and pointless sex scenes or show Black Adam ripping off some limbs! That's the ticket!"

In all seriousness, Civil War was just about heroes fighting heroes, I find a sudden 52-week weekly series filling in the events of a missing year to be more than slightly gimmicky. Especially when comparing it to Civil War, which was (in loose theory, if not in practice) a monthly series.

james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject:

Acerbus wrote:

In all seriousness, Civil War was just about heroes fighting heroes, I find a sudden 52-week weekly series filling in the events of a missing year to be more than slightly gimmicky. Especially when comparing it to Civil War, which was (in loose theory, if not in practice) a monthly series.

Define the word "sudden" as you've used it in that sentence. Heck, while you're at it define the word "gimmicky" as you've used it in that sentence. Weekly = gimmicky? Monthly = not gimmicky? What?
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

Acerbus
Flying Blind

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:17 am Post subject:

james castle wrote:

Define the word "sudden" as you've used it in that sentence. Heck, while you're at it define the word "gimmicky" as you've used it in that sentence. Weekly = gimmicky? Monthly = not gimmicky? What?

"Sudden" here in the context of "Oh crap! Marvel's got Civil War coming up! And we've already used events with every variation of the words 'Identity', 'Infinite', 'Earth' and 'Crisis' in the title! Well, push all the books forward a year and then fill in the info later - hell, it worked for Daredevil."

james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:49 am Post subject:

Acerbus wrote:

james castle wrote:

Define the word "sudden" as you've used it in that sentence. Heck, while you're at it define the word "gimmicky" as you've used it in that sentence. Weekly = gimmicky? Monthly = not gimmicky? What?

You're not seriously saying that 52 was a response to Civil War. You can't be. You simply can't be.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

MercifulAvatar
Playing to the Camera

Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 117
Location: NEO, US

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:55 am Post subject:

Acerbus wrote:

"Sudden" here in the context of "Oh crap! Marvel's got Civil War coming up! And we've already used events with every variation of the words 'Identity', 'Infinite', 'Earth' and 'Crisis' in the title... Well, push all the books forward a year and then fill in the info later - hell, it worked for Daredevil."

OK. Here's my personal bias, Acerbus: I am an avid consumer of Vertigo and Wildstorm stories. I quit reading both DC and Marvel superhero books (after 33 years/DD excluded) because I perceived that both company's "events" were merely heavy handed attempts to prise more money out of my hands by leveraging brand loyalty. As opposed to prising money out of my hands by writing/executing compelling storylines that didn't actually offend my loyalty.

At that point I made an economic decision of my own and said "eff 'em both. I'll continue to buy the books I like (disproportionately indie) and let DC/Marvel rake in the shekels from the rubes."

What is your bias? You're starting to sound like a frothing Marvel zombie...
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Forrest
Lowlife

Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:59 am Post subject:

MercifulAvatar wrote:

OK. Here's my personal bias [. . .]

This is a very important point. I'd define my biases on how likely that I will give a book a chance and similarly, my assumption on how good/bad a book will be, before I read it. (E.g. if Johns writes a book, I'm going to assume it will ROCK and I will definitely pick it up. If Bendis writes a book, I'm going to assume it will be pointless, senselessly disregard continuity and feel like a waste of money --> I won't pick it up.)

My big biases are in favor of (in order):
Geoff Johns
Greg Rucka
Ed Brubaker
Brian K Vaughan
Kurt Busiek
Mark Waid
Joss Whedon
DC Editorial

My big biases against are (in order):
Frank Miller (his Marvel/DC work since the 90s; his indie work and earlier Marvel/DC is great)
Brian Bendis (since the past few years, I still love his older work)
Marvel Editorial
Mark Millar (my views of post-Civil-War Millar are much like my views of Frank Miller. I still like Mark Millar better. Razz

)
John Bryne

Now, the question comes up of why these biases exist? I'd like to think I have sound reason for all of these. Waid is a bald white guy who I am sure is nice in person. Bendis is a bald white guy who I am sure is nice in person. Razz

Meaning, I try to base my biases solely off their work. (E.g. I've said before that I like listening to Bendis's podcasts, etc.) ...However I must say that I don't think I'd ever even want to meet Frank Miller. The guy just seems like an ass. Razz

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Francesco
Underboss

Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Writers like Bendis and Millar let the event tell the story. How much substance really existed in House of M, Civil War, Avengers Disassembled, etc.?

To a lesser degree, Bendis' run in DD also lacked substance and relied mostly on "big events".

Forrest
Lowlife

Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject:

Francesco wrote:

Quote:

Writers like Bendis and Millar let the event tell the story. How much substance really existed in House of M, Civil War, Avengers Disassembled, etc.?

To a lesser degree, Bendis' run in DD also lacked substance and relied mostly on "big events".

I agree with you 150%. Very Happy

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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!"

Acerbus
Flying Blind

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:22 am Post subject:

MercifulAvatar wrote:

I read primarily Bande Dessinees, I'm a huge Moebius fan. I love over-the-top futuristic sci-fi like 2000 A.D. and Heavy Metal. That comprises a good 80% of my reading material. The rest is either Daredevil or Elephantmen or something else wierd... but certainly not 'indie'. I think iconoclastic, ultrapolitical turds like Brian Wood should get out of comics.

I despise DC, particularly the Vertigo line, which I see as DC's cop-out excuse for not having to take chances in their main comics imprint, not to mention unforgivably pretentious and even borderline propagandist. They've played catch-up with Marvel, and recieved accolades that they didn't earn simply for falling in step with the practices of companies that have truly innovated. They began the ridiculous 'exclusive creator contracts' war... the blame of which they immediately shifted to Joe Quesada, who simply had to adopt the practice to stay competitive.

Beyond that, they brought back the multiverse. Ahhhh... nothing like taking a few hundred steps back.

MercifulAvatar
Playing to the Camera

Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 117
Location: NEO, US

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:27 am Post subject:

Acerbus wrote:

I read primarily Bande Dessinees...

I had to Wikipedia this term, thanks for tossing it out there.
Are you French or Belgian by descent or simply an admirer?

Acerbus wrote:

I despise DC, particularly the Vertigo line...

Obviously we disagree about the quality of the Vertigo line, but you did bring to light another bias I have: I thought because you were ranting about DC that you were a Marvel fan(atic). The old "finger pointing at the moon" confusion; my apologies for jumping to a conclusion with too little information.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject:

Acerbus wrote:

Wait. Where am I? Is the same guy who's singing Civil War's praises now bashing Vertigo? What? What? I also can't believe that you called Vertigo "unforgivably pretentious" while commenting that you read mainly "Bande Dessinees" and describing your reading habits as "wierd" (sic). That, my friend, is unforgivably pretentious.

I'd comment on the rest of your "points" if I thought for a second that they were genuine or your own. The incoherant nature of whatever it is you're trying to say suggests, and strongly suggests, that you're just regurgitating points you've picked up on different message boards. You like posting on message boards and appearing "wierd". I guess we all have our hobbies.
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

Acerbus
Flying Blind

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject:

I must have missed the part where Bande Dessinees were pretentious. The French comic industry is comprised primarily of futuristic sci-fi comics, and genre comics (i.e. Westerns, such as 'Blueberry' or Sword-and-Cape books like 'The Scorpion') but it's by no means made up of single-issue proselytic garbage like DMZ or American Virgin. As for Civil War, Mark Millar said he considered it a fun hero vs. hero book, with a geopolitical backdrop just so it was a bit more relevant. I think you've misread the event's intentions, probably due to the generous slathering of disinformative mainstream media coverage surrounding the book that ascribed all kinds of political underpinnings to Civil War that Mark Millar didn't really intend to be there. At any rate, I think we've hijacked this topic long enough.

james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject:

Isn't Nightwing a DC character? You seem to like him. Man, I missed the part where being a conservative rocker made sense. _________________ JC So why can't you see the funny side? Why aren't you laughing?

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