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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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 Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Scary and Prominent Villains in DD |
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I'm trying to be better behaved and not go off on tangents within a thread. So, here's a new thread for a tangent from the #100 cover:
| Francesco wrote: |
Also, is the Owl a scary, prominent DD villain anymore? The last two times they met, DD has beaten him up like a schoolboy, with no troubles of sort. |
Well, for volume two I think I could count on one hand the number of villains in the title who are "scary [and] prominent."
...Under scary alone: Wilson Fisk, Vanessa Fisk, Bullseye, Mysterio, Hammerhead
Under prominent alone: Wilson Fisk and Bullseye
So, scary and prominent for volume 2 goes back to Bullseye and Kingpin. [Insert Forrest's token rant about how Smith and Bendis are overrated DD writers who couldn't help but come back to Miller's work instead of seeking more originality.] Of course, Brubaker went to Vanessa but she was never a villain in DD. 
While 90s volume 1 DD is often looked down upon by many fans, I simply loved seeing the variety of villains in that post-Miller era! Similarly, Nocenti did an outstanding job getting new villains. ...basically, I was happy with post-Miller villain selection, until volume 2. I think this will change as we get more into Brubaker's current arc. 
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if anyone would qualify the Stiltman as scary or prominent... but we must admit that he stands high over the rest of DD villains
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Solid Snake PAC
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Conroe, Tx
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| I see what you did there... |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| When Typhoid showed up in Hardcore I was excited, until she ended up getting beat up by Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Scary and Prominent Villains in DD |
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| Forrest wrote: |
...Under scary alone: Wilson Fisk, Vanessa Fisk, Bullseye, Mysterio, Hammerhead
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Was Mysterio really scary or just really surprising? My experience with him went like this:
"What? Who's that? It looks like Mysterio but that wouldn't make any sense. Oh, I get it. It's probably a real Daredevil villian dressed up as Mysterio. That makes more sense. Why would Mysterio mess with DD? What? What's this? Who has cancer? Spider-Man? No? Oh. Mysterio? Mysterio has cancer and doesn't want to fight Spider-Man? Wait, did Karen have AIDS or cancer? She didn't have AIDS? She did? Why would Mysterio give Karen AIDS? Why would he fight Daredevil? And why would....[BLAM!] What? What just happened? Did he shoot himself? What's going on? I'm scared."
Hmmmm, on second though I guess he was scary.
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So why can't you see the funny side?
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Scary and Prominent Villains in DD |
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| james castle wrote: | | Forrest wrote: |
...Under scary alone: Wilson Fisk, Vanessa Fisk, Bullseye, Mysterio, Hammerhead
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Was Mysterio really scary or just really surprising? My experience with him went like this:
"What? Who's that? It looks like Mysterio but that wouldn't make any sense. Oh, I get it. It's probably a real Daredevil villian dressed up as Mysterio. That makes more sense. Why would Mysterio mess with DD? What? What's this? Who has cancer? Spider-Man? No? Oh. Mysterio? Mysterio has cancer and doesn't want to fight Spider-Man? Wait, did Karen have AIDS or cancer? She didn't have AIDS? She did? Why would Mysterio give Karen AIDS? Why would he fight Daredevil? And why would....[BLAM!] What? What just happened? Did he shoot himself? What's going on? I'm scared."
Hmmmm, on second though I guess he was scary. |
Well, in quickly putting together that list, I primarily included Mysterio because he was associated with Karen's death. But your right, he really wasn't that scary when the plot was so chaotically thrown together. In that regard, it was similar to late Civil War; the event was emotionally jarring from a very high level Wikipedia spoiler prospective but whilst reading the story, the poor storytelling and plotting really distracted from the emotional impact. So, I'm not going to bash the emotional impact Smith conveyed in issues #5 and #8 because I actually think he did a fantastic job, there. However, I am definitely suggesting that all the other Guardian Devil issues undermined any "scary" factor that Mysterio might have had under a different writer and fairly different plot. [Forrest's token pro-Brubaker statement: Brubaker could have had Mysterio hire Bullseye to kill Karen and it would have been an insanely amazing story.]
I haven't read Guardian Devil in at least two years. So, I forgot how chaotic the plot was in explaining Mysterio's motivation. ...Issues #6 and 7 were pretty pathetic, as I recall.
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Scary and Prominent Villains in DD |
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| Forrest wrote: |
I haven't read Guardian Devil in at least two years. So, I forgot how chaotic the plot was in explaining Mysterio's motivation. ...Issues #6 and 7 were pretty pathetic, as I recall. |
I have re-read it recently, and IMHO, doesn't hold as well on further readings, the first read surprises you, but a second read reveals some cracks in the story. I love Quesada's art there, but the story seems to have more fireworks than substance . Too many things are left unexplained (i.e. why happens what happens in the hospital with the babies? We are left) and I have the impression that there is too many people dying for no specific purpose. And the religious mumbo-jumbo! I went to a nun's school and I swear that the view of Catholicism given in that story is, hum... exotic indeed.
To put it with another example: "Born Again" possibly chronicles one of the greatest upheavals in Murdock's life... But then, of all of Matt's friends and Acquaintances, there's only one character who dies... Just one! The rest of characters may be shocked or battered, or worried to death and feeling completely powerless against something they can't fathom. By the end of the saga, all of Matt's friends have more or less solved their crisis, and face a better future.
"Born Again" tells a great story with a lesser bodycount. All the casualties of "guardian Devil" don't necessarily make a better story. So I wouldn't count Mysterio as a prominent Villain, more like a villain seeking prominence, and failing to get it.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Scary and Prominent Villains in DD |
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[quote="Gloria"]I went to a nun's school and I swear that the view of Catholicism given in that story is, hum... exotic indeed.
Well, I went to a nun's school too, they actually tried to instill an "exotic view of Catholicism" themselves.
That said, Smith's view of Catholicism is just a pathetic by-product of today's stereotyped vision of the different religions.
| Quote: |
To put it with another example: "Born Again" possibly chronicles one of the greatest upheavals in Murdock's life... But then, of all of Matt's friends and Acquaintances, there's only one character who dies... Just one! |
Yet, it must be said that lot of people died in that arc, not just Manolis. I felt so sad when the poor, frail Lois was brutally killed in jail. No wait, Nuke died too. And the helicopter pilot. And agent Egerfors. And another helicopter pilot. And the sniper. And Urich's colleague. And two cops. And two latino-american mobsters. And two MP soldiers and the doctor. And the mobster battered to death by "Mr 5B", plus another killed by Paulo. And Mr Glazer. Not counting the soldiers in Nicaragua (at the beginning of "God and Country") and other, almost certain, BTS civilian casualties in Nuke's Raid. Also, Tonio, Stillson and the dealer, who were killed BTS.
| Quote: |
"Born Again" tells a great story with a lesser bodycount. All the casualties of "guardian Devil" don't necessarily make a better story. |
True. Today's writers (and editors) would really have much to learn from the great arcs of the eighties. They should drop this habit of putting all these chains of "BA-DA-BOOM!" events to keep the stories going, and focus more on better storywriting.
With Born Again, for example, Miller did something unexpected too, by having Murdock fall in disgrace, but at least he was backing it up with an excellent writing.
Paraphrasing Uncle Ben, I overall think that "with great events there must also come great storytelling".
| Quote: | | So I wouldn't count Mysterio as a prominent Villain, more like a villain seeking prominence, and failing to get it. |
Ironically, we could draw a parallelism between the villain and the writer. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Scary and Prominent Villains in DD |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Gloria wrote: |
So I wouldn't count Mysterio as a prominent Villain, more like a villain seeking prominence, and failing to get it. |
Ironically, we could draw a parallelism between the villain and the writer. |
On second thought, I see now that Mysterio wasn't actually a villain fighting Daredevil: His real objective wasn't to drive Murdock insane, but to destroy the continuity of the Karl Kesel run.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Scary and Prominent Villains in DD |
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| Francesco wrote: |
Well, I went to a nun's school too, they actually tried to instill an "exotic view of Catholicism" themselves |
 True, the delights of religious education are not easily forgotten... But I had in mind the further stereotypation, as you say... And it could be worse: I don't want to think how the practitioners of Caribbean sincretic religions must feel about Brother Vodoo or the Santerians 
We have similar instances when an American superhero travels out of the USA: if he goes to Spain , expect to see him involved in a bullfight, if he goes to Italy, you'll see him in a gondola in Venice, if he goes to Japan, he'll knock a big sumo fighter, etc...
| Quote: | | Yet, it must be said that lot of people died in that arc, not just Manolis. I felt so sad when the poor, frail Lois was brutally killed in jail (...) |
Hey, i said " of all of Matt's friends and Acquaintances, there's only one character who dies": Matt, Karen, Foggy, Urich and Doris survive the saga... of course, there are more casualties among the baddies... But these are even greater and more gratuitous in "Guardian Devil": I mean, what happens to those guys in the elevator, again, the babies in hospital, the "virgin" girl and her family, all the people in Sister Maggie's church, etc...
I could call the Nicaraguan soldiers killed by Nuke as gratuitous, but not story-wise, for it stablishes pretty concisely what Nuke is (some sort of wild, doped super-Rambo working for the army), and thus helps us to anticipate the danger when Kingpin hires his services. Same goes with the victims of Paulo or the Kingpin.
In my opinion the deaths in "Born Again" are more meaningful for the story's purpose... those deaths in "Guardian Devil" are an overkill...
| Quote: |
True. Today's writers (and editors) would really have much to learn from the great arcs of the eighties. They should drop this habit of putting all these chains of "BA-DA-BOOM!" events to keep the stories going, and focus more on better storywriting.
With Born Again, for example, Miller did something unexpected too, by having Murdock fall in disgrace, but at least he was backing it up with an excellent writing.
Paraphrasing Uncle Ben, I overall think that "with great events there must also come great storytelling". . |
I entirely agree with this... I often wonder if the pressure of fandom has something to do with it, too: I mean, I've seen fine stories attacked by some readers because "there were not enough kicks/fights" in them.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't go to a Nun's school but Guardian Devil seemed a bit heavy-handed in the Catholic mumbo-jumbo. I think Kevin Smith came to the project with too much religious baggage. When Miller would make vague references, he managed to make them seem significant. Most of Smith's stuff, seemed forced. Like he was trying to create a big event, but without laying the proper foundation. (Hmmm, that's a theme that comes up alot). And I had trouble buying that Mysterio would switch to Daredevi in the first place. It hearkened back to a much earlier time, when DD had such lame villains, that they would keep using Spidey villains.
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Neilan wrote: | | It hearkened back to a much earlier time, when DD had such lame villains, that they would keep using Spidey villains. |
A Spidey villain comes to mind which could make the exception to the rule. A villain that was quite lame with Spidey, but became a top-notch nemesis in Daredevil.
With Spiderman, Kingpin was mostly just another gangster with whom the webcrawler could deal in a simple fisticuffs fight. When Kingpin became a Daredevil villain, Kingpin became, and has remained, one of the greatest villains of the Marvel Universe, not because of his strength and fists, but because of his brains and heartlessness. Powerful, cool, feared... With Spidey he was just a fat villain.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: |
With Spiderman, Kingpin was mostly just another gangster with whom the webcrawler could deal in a simple fisticuffs fight. When Kingpin became a Daredevil villain, Kingpin became, and has remained, one of the greatest villains of the Marvel Universe, not because of his strength and fists, but because of his brains and heartlessness. |
Ya, in fact.
Take the Murdock Papers storyarc, for example, and watch what Kingpin did in it. He was chained, in jail, powerless, surrounded by FBI agents. And, using just his skills in manipulation he managed to have Murdock attacked by Bullseye, shot by a sniper, found in a secret hideout and subsequently arrested. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I would say after Alias, Purple Man is a very scarey villain, but he is also one of the least prominent, considering he hasn't appeared in a DD comic for the past 20 years.
Likewise Owl was somehwat prominent in Vol. 2, but was about as threatening as a ham sandwich. That has been a problem with DD for the last 7 years, almost all villains that aren't Fisk or Bulls are either never used or turned into jokes.
Also it seems with Brubaker on the scene, Kingpin and Bullseye are getting a well deserved vacation from the DD title and other villains will get a focus. I think this is a good idea, after Geoff Johns revamped Flash's rogues gallery into interesting characters, so why couldn't Brubaker do the same with DD's rogues gallery? Plus I think Kingpin and Bullseye were being overused and it lessens their impact when they do appear (though Bullseye is still overexposed in Thunderbolts). |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Gloria wrote: |
With Spiderman, Kingpin was mostly just another gangster with whom the webcrawler could deal in a simple fisticuffs fight. When Kingpin became a Daredevil villain, Kingpin became, and has remained, one of the greatest villains of the Marvel Universe, not because of his strength and fists, but because of his brains and heartlessness. |
Ya, in fact.
Take the Murdock Papers storyarc, for example, and watch what Kingpin did in it. He was chained, in jail, powerless, surrounded by FBI agents. And, using just his skills in manipulation he managed to have Murdock attacked by Bullseye, shot by a sniper, found in a secret hideout and subsequently arrested. |
Kingpin was originally, a pretty cool villain in Spidey. Besides, being strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Spider-Man, he controlled the classic "vast criminal empire". And, he was incredibly quick, "for a big man". Pete was always thinking to himself how KP was so much faster than he looked (of course Stan used to have him think the same thing about the Rhino). Kingpin was one of the early, and probably the best of the, Romita villains. As time went on, he became not as fearsome, as in ASM 162-164(?). When he was pulled into the DD universe, he quickly became a great villain. I think its that ability to get things done without he, himself, having to do any dirty work, that touches heavily on the sinister nerve. Rarely, is his great physical strength played up anymore, (although he has been shown to protect himself easily in prison).
Overlord wrote:
| Quote: | | Also it seems with Brubaker on the scene, Kingpin and Bullseye are getting a well deserved vacation from the DD title and other villains will get a focus. I think this is a good idea, after Geoff Johns revamped Flash's rogues gallery into interesting characters, so why couldn't Brubaker do the same with DD's rogues gallery? Plus I think Kingpin and Bullseye were being overused and it lessens their impact when they do appear (though Bullseye is still overexposed in Thunderbolts). |
I, too, welcome a break, from the Kingpin-Bullseye merry-go-round in Daredevil. I'm sure, though, that we'll still be seeing plenty of them in other titles. Besides Bullseye in the aforementioned TBolts, you gotta expect KP to do alot of surfacing in multiple titles, as he's not only DD's greatest villain, but a major player in the MU.
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