Daredevil Message Board

[harryhausen]

So, in light of some of the developing plot points in All-Star Batman, I recently re-read the other Miller Batman efforts, in particular Year One. And so, being the dutiful DD fan that I am, I dug out my ‘Born Again’ issues and read them, too. This prompted several realizations, none of them novel, but I wonder if others of you have had the same ideas:

1. I just revamped my pull list to be basically DD and the Bat-family. Seems I like dudes with few or no powers who beat people up. Add a healthy dose of Eastern mystical martial arts and I’m there. Now, the guy at my LCS gave me tons of guff about this. He’s an Iron Man fan (like, he always has on a shirt that says ‘Stark Industries’ kind of Iron Man fan), and he makes lots of fun of DD and Batman and “all that.” He then goes on to say that I’m one of “those” readers – indicating that this is a type? A DD/Batman and that’s-about-it kind of guy? Some of the regulars chortled at this, whether from their long-practiced crony ways or recognition of a “sort” in comicdom, I don’t know. I laughed along with them, because, well I’m 6 inches taller than the poor guy and have, you know, been on dates and stuff … Anyway, am I some sort of stereotype? Help me to know myself, please.

2. WOW! Can anyone believe that burst of amazing creativity from late ’85 to ‘87 that saw ‘DKR,’ ‘Born Again,’ and ‘Year One’ come from the same pen? Holy Miller! What was our man smokin’, huh? I need some of that!

3. Here comes the controversial part: I can’t help but feel that everyone who has worked on DD or Batman since that watershed period cited above has just been languishing in the shadows of Frank Miller. I mean, even when they consciously avoid his characterizations or plot details, they are still responding to his work. Even Brubaker seems in thrall to Miller’s legacy. The only writers who have gotten away from it a little (in a way that makes sense) are left-fielders like Nocenti (and now maybe Morrison, over on Batman). So … if some New Reader wanted to get the scoop on either character, I would confidently steer them to the Miller work (in TPB) and advise them to stop there, in most cases (especially with Batman). If you want more, it’s there, New Reader, but it will probably let you down.

Recap: Are Batman/DD fans a “type”? Holy cow, Miller was on it in the mid-80s! Can it be that Miller is the defining creator on both these books - so much so, that a perfect, triple-distilled essence of these characters can be found in his work alone?

[james castle]

The other crazy thing about the 80s is the Watchmen was coming out at the same time as DKR. That must have been nuts. I think Miller has actually said that Watchmen influenced the last couple chapters of DKR. In any case, not that Alan Moore needs any more praise but Miller owes a bit to Moore for at least looming in the background being awesome.

As for the other stuff: I think Miller is the defining Daredevil writer simply because nothing is as good as Born Again. Bendis' run was good and Nocenti was great and Bru's run is exciting but none of it comes anywhere near Born Again. It just doesn't. In many ways, all other DD stories really are just footnotes to Born Again.

As for Batman. I dunno. I consider myself a pretty big Batman fan. I love the character to death. However, here is a complete list of Batman comics I have read:

Year One
The Killing Joke
DKR
DKR2
Arkham
Batman: Cast Shadows (Nocenti....woowoo!)
Batman: Year 100
Batman and Son

That's it (okay, I also read A Death in the Family and A Lonely Place of Dying when I was young but I don't remember them/didn't like them). The thing is...I don't know if I am a huge Batman fan. Shouldn't a proper Batman fan have...I don't know...read the series at some point? Virtually everything I've read is Elseworlds. The only stuff that isn't is Morrison or Nocenti (whose books always feel like Elseworlds anyway). As far as Miller is concerned, as far as I know the only "in continuity" thing he's ever written is Year One and now there's doubt about whether that's even cannon. I don't know if you can say Miller is the defining Batman writer when he's never even written a DCU Batman story. Just one example that I think illustrates the point: Batman IS a part of the Justice League. However, it's nearly impossible to imagine Miller's Batman being part of any league. It's ridiculous.
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Jim B.]

I used to be accused of being one of those fans myself Harry, because I only liked DD and Batman (and Batman family) characters and books. I used to really only like the more realistic martial arts characters in comics and that was it. People who usually liked the super powerful God like characters like Silver Surfer and Superman would give me crap for that. Oh well... My argument was that the super powerful characters got boring really quick to read about and the realistic characters we're more interesting to read since they are more human. But to each there own I guess. I have since moved on to liking some other more different comics and characters but still am mainly drawn to DD and Batman it seems.
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"This isn't hell, but you can see it from here." -The Crow

[SouthernHero]

I only read DD and Batman books. I've recently branched out just a little... but there is no beating those two.
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Middle Class Fabulous

[Ratchet]

I'm more or less in a category of my own too. For instance, I'm a diehard Miller fan. (You like All Star Batman and Robin, Harry? Well, so do I! Solidarity!) Batman is one of my all-time favorite characters, but I've watched more Batman animated episodes than I've read Batman comics. Of course, I had read a handful of the best Bat-books, and I'll go out on the limb and say what should come as no surprise: The Dark Knight Returns is the best Batman story--not just best Bat-comic--period. And yeah, I love Daredevil. Miller is the freakin' man--his DD stuff holds up better than anyone's. Born Again is my all-time favorite story, but the rest of his stuff on the title is timeless too. I've reread all his work on the book more than I have anyone else's--I must have done so at least five times. The only one who came somewhat close was Nocenti. There used to be a time when I would reread both runs on a semiannual basis, but I just couldn't take Nocenti's scripting anymore--sorry, my tastes changed/matured. (But I do have a few Bat-scribed Nocenti books I'd like to get to someday.)

As for great writers living in the shadow of Miller's DD--get used to it. It's a pretty damn big shadow. Bendis accomplished a lot during his run, but there were instances where it seemed he would run with an idea and claim it as his own, though the idea was first used by Miller. Loved "The Devil in Cell-Block D" and I enjoy Brubaker on a regular basis, but whereas Bendis drove me crazy with his incredibly text-heavy pages sometimes, a lot of those first-person caps by Brubaker don't do much for me. I don't have anything against first-person caps (Miller fan), but if they're not used sparingly, they should at least enhance the reading, get you wrapped up in what's going on even more. (I hope it doesn't seem like I'm coming down on these guys--I really do admire them--but I don't post often, thus the open flood gates.) But to be fair about that shadow thing, the successful post-Miller writers are writing the book so much in the vein of Miller--ya know, the whole crime noir thing--that comparisons abound. No matter how great a run is after Miller, many of the core elements will always be traced to him because that's when the book did a 180 for the better. But guess what? That's all right. As long as I get a comic putting the character through his paces, and it does so in an engaging way that stays true to Daredevil, I'm a happy camper.

And I love Spider-Man. He's the first character I've ever collected, and he dominates my long boxes. And I hate One More Day/Brand New Day, so I won't be collecting his title for the foreseeable future. 'Nuff said!

I don't have too many immensely superpowered titles. It seems that I gravitate toward low-powered/moderately superpowered characters, but I do love reading comics about normal-powered characters--anything to get me out of my superpowered shell, so to speak. More to the point, though, I think of myself as a fan who just likes quality. I've enjoyed titles from any number of genres or subgenres. I love Simonson's Thor, a few Silver Surfer comics, Strangers in Paradise (a romance comic, no less), anything by Ellis, and the present Captain America. Oh, and Astonishing X-Men--can't forget that. It's like Whedon cherry-picked the best qualities of the X-titles' history and put them in one book, mixed with his own inimitable goodness. On the flip side, I love The Punisher by Ennis. Now there's a nonpowered hero book. I'm in awe of Ennis' talent (get Preacher), and he's honed his craft to precision. I've never read a book this dark, but The Punisher is so freakin' good and damn funny, to boot.

[SouthernHero]

Great post, thanks!
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Middle Class Fabulous

[train]

don't have much to add, other than i'm one of "those" collectors. at current time, i don't read a batman title, but i do have nightwing on my pull list.

just to parrot everyone else, year one is a fantastic story.

[Blind Alley]

As this thread is about DD and Batman :


Sorry, it wasn't written by Miller.
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