Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Daredevil #111 discussion
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The comics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dave Wallace
Paradiso


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that anyone is necessarily condoning Matt's actions. And I don't think that the fact that Brubaker has had Matt sleep with Dakota should be seen as Brubaker condoning his actions either. Instead, he's having Matt make a choice which is at best morally questionable, and exploring the character by doing so.

I think that some people are getting hung up on whether it's right or wrong for Matt to do this, when I think that the more interesting question is whether it's in-character for Matt do to this. And I think it is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:

I think that some people are getting hung up on whether it's right or wrong for Matt to do this, when I think that the more interesting question is whether it's in-character for Matt do to this. And I think it is.


I don't know if you're referring to me with that, but I assure you that I've been having Matt's "in-character-ness" in mind all the time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jumonji
Guardian Devil


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacktyphoid wrote:
Besides, jumonji - all with all due respect - I think you're doing more than understanding it. I think you are condoning it.

If I were condoning it, I would think that what he did was morally okay. I don't. I would have preferred that he hadn't gone that far honestly. Yes, I would have been more comfortable, as a fan of the character, if he had said "Sorry Dakota, I can't do this." I would have respected the character more for that, and I'm not 100% comfortable with how this all played out.

What I think I might be doing, is trying to preserve the character's inherent "goodness" in my mind. I want to understand why things happened this way, and I want to construct an idea in my mind that I'm comfortable with. I suppose you could call it a defense mechanism.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is Milla's condition in all of this. Some seem to feel that her condition makes Matt's philandering more "okay," whereas others feel the other way around. I'm in the former category. While I feel this development was much too fast for comfort, Matt has become sort of a pseudo-widower (did I just make up a new word?). I would have been much less comfortable with him being in a commited relationship that actually existed, as in composed of two people who live together and share the same bed, and then seeing him go off on the side and pick someone up in a bar. That is much more calculating in my mind, whereas this looks more like a person in grief seeking comfort. That's not condoning it, it's just trying to make sense of the chain of events.

In response to what Dave Wallace said, I agree that this isn't out of character for Matt. I'm still in the "Matt is (essentially) a nice person" corner, silly as that might sound, but he can be morally weak, and has been in the past as well.
_________________
The Other Murdock Papers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dave Wallace
Paradiso


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
I don't know if you're referring to me with that, but I assure you that I've been having Matt's "in-character-ness" in mind all the time.

No, I wasn't referring to anyone specific. I just think that it's important to remember that we're talking about the actions of Matt as a character, rather than whether adultery is right or wrong in real life.

And I agree with jumonji, Milla's condition makes this a very different situation to the way it would have been if Matt was cheating on her whilst they were still in a healthy relationship.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've understood your point of view, but I sill think it's very out of character. I've always seen Matt as one who has the strength to put his personal feelings aside, especially when those he cares for are involved. Moreover, he's always shown to be very committed to his marriage with Milla, he's always said to take it very seriously, especially during Bendis' run.
Thi is what strikes me most.

The question now should be, what are his feelings towards Milla, really?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave Wallace
Paradiso


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
I've understood your point of view, but I sill think it's very out of character. I've always seen Matt as one who has the strength to put his personal feelings aside, especially when those he cares for are involved. Moreover, he's always shown to be very committed to his marriage with Milla, he's always said to take it very seriously, especially during Bendis' run.
Thi is what strikes me most.

That's true, Matt has always been shown to take his marriage very seriously. Obviously Milla's condition has changed their relationship, but I don't think that it would make Matt take their marriage lightly. I think that his instant regret after spending the night with Dakota shows that he still takes his commitment to Milla seriously and is very mindful of the fact that what he did done was wrong - that romantic and sexual feelings got the better of him, and he broke his promises to Milla as a result.

Francesco wrote:
The question now should be, what are his feelings towards Milla, really?

Yes, hopefully this is something that we'll see Brubaker explore in future issues. I'm hoping that she'll still be an important character in the book for some time to come.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
vtsoxfan7
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 182
Location: The 'noke, VA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji wrote:
Another thing I'd like to bring up is Milla's condition in all of this. Some seem to feel that her condition makes Matt's philandering more "okay," whereas others feel the other way around. I'm in the former category. While I feel this development was much too fast for comfort, Matt has become sort of a pseudo-widower (did I just make up a new word?). I would have been much less comfortable with him being in a commited relationship that actually existed, as in composed of two people who live together and share the same bed, and then seeing him go off on the side and pick someone up in a bar. That is much more calculating in my mind, whereas this looks more like a person in grief seeking comfort. That's not condoning it, it's just trying to make sense of the chain of events.


Thank you for clarifying the point I was trying to make when I said the Widow and Dakota situations were different...You did a much better job of putting it into words.
_________________
https://twitter.com/tburnham7

http://tburnham7.blogspot.com/

'So I've got THAT going for me...which is nice' - Bill Murray, Caddyshack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:

I think that some people are getting hung up on whether it's right or wrong for Matt to do this, when I think that the more interesting question is whether it's in-character for Matt do to this. And I think it is.


Dave, I think you're great but I have to disagree with you on this point. You can't separate the two (is it right or wrong?/is it in character?) because those two issues taken together get to the core of Matt's being and his moral base - especially when it comes to his relationships with women. It's the fact that the two are connected that makes the questions so interesting - and challenging.

I believe Francesco has seamlessly connected the two points. (Not that he needs me to defend him), but I think Francesco's condemnation of Matt's infidelity is precisely connected to the fact that it is wrong in two ways: one: it is immoral (no ifs, ands or buts about it!); two: it is out of step with Matt's character. That's what I believe makes Francesco's argument (whether you agree with it or not) so interesting - Francesco draws a moral line in Matt's being and has determined that it's been shattered through his tryst with Dakota. Well done, man!

Btw, I disagree with Francesco. I think Matt's history with women demonstrates an uneven, complex and erratic sexual morality. With Typhoid Mary (as someone else highlighted) it was demonstrated that he'll stoop to the depths of sexual manipulation and deceit; yet with Black Widow, he'll avoid temptation and adultery. In other words, it's very difficult to determine whether or not his tryst with Dakota is out of character. His tryst simply adds another chapter to his complicated use of sex.

Btw, it's the connection between "is it right or wrong/is it in character" that creates so much fascination about Matt's own complex, moral dilemma. He knows sex with Dakota was wrong, yet he doesn't feel as bad about it as he should (which perhaps makes him feels worse). That's complicated stuff.

____________________
blacktyphoid
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave Wallace
Paradiso


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacktyphoid wrote:
Dave Wallace wrote:

I think that some people are getting hung up on whether it's right or wrong for Matt to do this, when I think that the more interesting question is whether it's in-character for Matt do to this. And I think it is.


Dave, I think you're great but I have to disagree with you on this point. You can't separate the two (is it right or wrong?/is it in character?) because those two issues taken together get to the core of Matt's being and his moral base - especially when it comes to his relationships with women. It's the fact that the two are connected that makes the questions so interesting - and challenging.

You're right, of course - and I didn't make myself very clear in my earlier post. What I meant to say was that the question of whether it's right or wrong shouldn't be directly equated with the question of whether it's in-character for Matt to do it. Matt doesn't always do the right thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lucrezia
Flying Blind


Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Dave Wallace wrote:
If Matt was perfect, then yes, he wouldn't commit adultery. But he's not. I think it's an interesting angle to explore with the character.


Of course Matt's not perfect, Dave. But, apart from the fact that suffering doesn't automatically justify you to do such actions, I think that Matt Murdock, hero of the book, should stand out a little from what "others would do".
He's supposed to be something more than the average female protagonist of romance novels you find in supermarkets, he's supposed to endure.

Heck, no one remembers the Widow storyarc? In it, he had practically broken with Milla, having been requested to sign the annulment by her lawyers. He returns home at night along with the Widow, after having kicked Jigsaw's butt, and there is this uber-sexy Russian redhead, all hot and ready to comfort him any way he wants.
They're about to lock lips but he stops. He can't do it, because of the simple reason that he still loves Milla and still feels married to her (and I might add, the Widow understands and respects that).

Now, I'm not saying that there should be coherence in this, that Matt should always behave one way because he did that before. God forbid it, in real life people continuously change their mind and ways of behaving.
I'll just say that I liked that portrayal of Matt better than this one.






If Matt had simply turned Natasha down due to some high minded self-righteousness and to make himself feel good. I could have understood his behaviour in this issue. But the fact is that prior to Natasha tunring up, we had this big long speech about how seriously Matt took marriage very seriously and it was part of his moral fiber and who he is. I took him to be sincere.


Please note, Matt wasn't drunk, he wasn't stonned, it wasn't as if his wife had been gone a long time and he was very lonely or suffering from 'abscence'. It wasn't as if the whole thing was done in the heat of the momment they actually took time to get up stairs to the bedroom. That means that he actually took time to think about what he was doing.




I have always had a big problem with Brubaker's run on DD. I used to think that it was merely due to the ho-hum storytelling. But I came to the conclusion that it has a lot to do with Brubaker's treatment of the character. Under Bendis DD was very disciplined and controlled. Brubaker has him throwing temper tantrums. Under Bendis DD/Matt believed in the sanctity of marriage. Under Brubaker, Matt can't wait to unzip his fly at the first opportunity. He's now reduced to being no better than a lecherous swine like DC's Green Arrow or Arsenal. A man devoid of character, integrity and given to following his lustful impulses. That's not a hero.

I was extreemely disapointed with this book. Very disaspointed. And very dissolusioned. Up until now I had considered DD one of the few characters I could personally identify with. He wasn't perfect and did wrong things , sometimes due to fear sometimes out of the greater good. But he never struck me as being deliberatly reprehensible. I really don't see how Matt can be redeemed in this situation. Not at all.


[/b]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The comics All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 4 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group