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UPDATED: Shadowland, a Daredevil mini from Marvel *SPOILERS*
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Foggy's Pal
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 12 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole villain thing got me thinking. If Marvel was going to switch writers, this would be the perfect opportunity. Think about it: Bendis put him in jail, Bru made him leader of the Hand, Diggle makes him a villain. Obviously Matt would never be a true villain, but someone like Garth Ennis or Jason Aaron could work with that.
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Dimetre
Child's Play


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Even if DD killed Bullseye, it wouldn't be that big a deal, in my opinion. DD has often killed those who put innocents in danger, and what's actually surprising is how he's kept himself from NOT killing Bullseye until now.

I find it sad that a Daredevil fan can view Matt as someone who would allow himself the option to kill. Historically, that's a territory he would never allow himself to enter.

Yes, in #181 he dropped Bullseye from the guywire. But his first instinct was to save him, and Bullseye was not going to have that, and attempted to kill Daredevil, who then let go of him. I don't think Bullseye was giving him much of a choice.

Yes, in born again, he blew up a helicopter with the pilot inside. But the pilot was killing civilians, and Daredevil had got his hands on Nuke's weapon. He couldn't allow more civilians to die. He fired and immediately asked for forgiveness.

Those are the two instances I can think of from Volume 1. In Volume 2 before Diggle, I can't think of Daredevil killing anybody (although I did skip the second half of Bendis' run). With Diggle, Daredevil has led the slaughter / torture of H.A.M.M.E.R. agents. I now believe that his behaviour can be explained because he is under the control of the Hand.

But my point is that I have always looked at Daredevil as a hero with a very strong moral centre who doesn't allow himself to waver. Read "The Death of Jean De Wolfe." Read David Lapham's "Daredevil vs. Punisher." To that end, read any encounter between Daredevil and Punisher in Volume 1. He was the noblest of characters. I'm hoping one day he can get back to that.
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom


Joined: 30 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever The Hand has resuscitated a Marvel character (the attempted resurrection of Elektra, the resurrection of Doctor Octopus, etc.) the aim has always been to control the character. It is indeed likely that since Matt's revival by The Hand in DD Volume #2 #80, he has slowly come under The Hand's influence. Matt has undoubtedly put up a valiant struggle psychologically and emotionally - but he is now succumbing.

I cannot recall the last time Matt had a so-called "thought balloon." Perhaps there is a reason for this. It is entrirely possible that Marvel does not want the readers to fully understand the inner conflict that has been brewing within the protagonist.
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, in born again, he blew up a helicopter with the pilot inside. But the pilot was killing civilians, and Daredevil had got his hands on Nuke's weapon. He couldn't allow more civilians to die.


And how is that different from what I said? I think it's pretty simple: you put civilian lives at risk while DD is around? Well, watch out, because it's highly likely that DD will kill you for that.
This is what is historically proven, more than "he would never allow himself to enter that territory".
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Foggy's Pal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind of bummed to see that all the tie-in books will carry the $4 price tag. I was hoping they would be $3.
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Marvel Knight
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Joined: 21 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
I cannot recall the last time Matt had a so-called "thought balloon." Perhaps there is a reason for this. It is entrirely possible that Marvel does not want the readers to fully understand the inner conflict that has been brewing within the protagonist.


I'm fairly certain that's true given what Andy and Antony have said in recent interviews.
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Dre
Flying Blind


Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foggy's Pal wrote:
This whole villain thing got me thinking. If Marvel was going to switch writers, this would be the perfect opportunity. Think about it: Bendis put him in jail, Bru made him leader of the Hand, Diggle makes him a villain. Obviously Matt would never be a true villain, but someone like Garth Ennis or Jason Aaron could work with that.
Since Diggle only started his run but a year ago, it's highly unlikely he'd be leaving already, but your surmization there is just as interesting if not more so than the aformentioned unlikelihood. Turning DD into villian would put Matt into a morally compromsing position and leave way for the following creator like Aaron or anothercreator adept in crime stories with wealth of story possiblities to mine from. Jason Aaron as invariably come to mind when I'd think of who could succeed Diggle should he choose to leave the title early or when he does eventually. All in all, you may have something here, and it's something I wouldn't mind seeing happen.
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Dimetre
Child's Play


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Quote:
Yes, in born again, he blew up a helicopter with the pilot inside. But the pilot was killing civilians, and Daredevil had got his hands on Nuke's weapon. He couldn't allow more civilians to die.


And how is that different from what I said? I think it's pretty simple: you put civilian lives at risk while DD is around? Well, watch out, because it's highly likely that DD will kill you for that.
This is what is historically proven, more than "he would never allow himself to enter that territory".

I don't think this instance indicates a pattern. In fact, his prayer while doing it proves his reluctance. I think that historically, what has been proven that he will protect the innocent while doing everything in his power to make sure that no one dies. He's never been about vengeance or cleansing. He's always been about justice.
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I'm not saying DD kills for vengeance or cleansing. He kills whenever innocent lives are seriously threatened.
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Foggy's Pal
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dre wrote:
Foggy's Pal wrote:
This whole villain thing got me thinking. If Marvel was going to switch writers, this would be the perfect opportunity. Think about it: Bendis put him in jail, Bru made him leader of the Hand, Diggle makes him a villain. Obviously Matt would never be a true villain, but someone like Garth Ennis or Jason Aaron could work with that.
Since Diggle only started his run but a year ago, it's highly unlikely he'd be leaving already, but your surmization there is just as interesting if not more so than the aformentioned unlikelihood. Turning DD into villian would put Matt into a morally compromsing position and leave way for the following creator like Aaron or anothercreator adept in crime stories with wealth of story possiblities to mine from. Jason Aaron as invariably come to mind when I'd think of who could succeed Diggle should he choose to leave the title early or when he does eventually. All in all, you may have something here, and it's something I wouldn't mind seeing happen.


I think Rucka would be a great choice as well. His crime/noir sensibilities would make him a perfect choice. I would also like to see Marcos Martin on art.
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