Daredevil Message Board

[Dimetre]

Well, I'm looking forward to james castle's further critiques!

[Foggy's Pal]

[james castle]

[Mike Murdock]

Great post, JC, in under the wire.

Next up, Guardian Devil pt. 2: The Unexamined Life



Same as before. Review due by Sunday, 10/12, but try to get it in early so we have time to discuss it. I'll try and have mine up sooner rather than later, but we'll see.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[Mike Murdock]

OK, issue two. We were asking who hasn't read it before. I didn't read it before, but I'm sure I've heard parts of it. Just where those parts fit in and how I'll feel about them, we'll have to see. I also read this issue last week before reading any comments and then went back after the comments to see if a re-read affects my reaction. That way I can try and get a sense of both a "pure" read and a more controlled read.

Starting off, I'm not at all convinced Kevin Smith knows how to write for Matt Murdock. And when something seems out of character for him, anyone else who accepts it as normal seems out of character as well (Foggy, Karen, and Natasha). I think he plays up Matt's faith too much. I just don't see him as a regular attender of Sunday Mass. The closest we got previously to anything like this was Typhoid Mary calling him a Merry Christian, but she was weird so I didn't put much weight in it. And the thing is, it isn't necessary. The story is about a crisis of faith for him. It would work just as well with awakening something that was more part of his childhood instead. To me, Matt is someone who considers himself a believer but doesn't actually practice. And that doesn't seem like it would change the story much to do.

The plot itself is in for a penny in for a pound when it comes to the biblical theme so far. Still, it's a nice grave choice they've given him that's worth the internal struggle that Daredevil would have to go through. I'm just not sure they pushed Daredevil to the point where he'd willingly hurl a baby off the side of a building just yet. I mean, they gave him 48 hours. I just don't think he'd make that decision in two. At least not without trying to get more information. My suspicions last week were that the Kingpin was involved somehow. That appears to not be the case and I'm relieved about that. Everything overall just seems a bit too weird, but I'll agree that's also part of the charm. Then there's the twist at the end (full disclosure, I've heard something about it before, but I'll withhold comment and speculation for now). It at least ups the stakes.

The art is beautifully drawn this issue, even better than the first. Full of vibrant colors and attention to detail. I still don't like how Matt is drawn, but I also don't like how he's portrayed so maybe that makes sense. That being said, I do want to talk about dialog and framing. A lot of people are complaining about how verbose Smith is. I just finished reading D.G. Chichester's Fall from Grace and read a wonderful interview with Chichester and artist Scott McDaniel. Chichester was very critical of how verbose he was (and for good reason). But, going from old comics to new (where I'm used to Ann Nocenti and Chichester), Smith doesn't seem all that out of place. On the other hand, McDaniel was critical of how he had a confusing layout in the issues, particularly stacking panels on the left side. I noticed that here too. Panels that are hard to follow from one to the next, dialog that nearly covers the scene, etc. Certainly, Smith is a writer who likes to write, which isn't what comics always need. I've had a couple times I had to re-read a page just to know which order to read things in.

Since I may not get many moments to comment on the law, I'll take advantage of it when I can and Foggy did something worthy of comment (legal disclaimer: although I'm a lawyer, nothing I say is intended as legal advice): Do not, under any circumstances, sleep with a client (Rule of Professional Conduct 1.8j). I know of an attorney who got disbarred who had clients and then passed them off to another attorney so he could evade the rule and have sex with them. It obviously didn't work. Then, of course, is the divorce attorney who had sex with his client and then billed for his time. It makes a good lawyer joke, but, yeah, he's been suspended indefinitely. I guess we'll see how it goes (given the shadowy guy in the background), but I'll just say tread carefully, Franklin Nelson, tread carefully...
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[Foggy's Pal]

First, nothing to do with current issue, but I want us to read Fall from Grace- I just get lost.
Anyway, without digging in too much, two things really jumped out at me.
1. I think we have agreed that Matt is a man of Faith, or at least belief, but most likely not a weekly practitioner. The fact that he would willingly throw a baby off of a building is ridiculous. He is far too practical for this. That kind of action is for fanatics who have gone off the deep end. Really out of character. I hate that Matt does this.
2. "When it rains it pours"- Smith uses this line a few times. It seems Smith wants to really put Matt to the test. The line screams, "look how I'm challenging Matt!" Previous storylines, those by Miller especially, don't need to tell you Matt is being put through the ringer. The stories make sense and speak for themselves. You feel for Matt. Smith's story, at times, seems contrived to be tough on Matt- especially the last page reveal with Karen. Poor storytelling imo.

[james castle]

[Foggy's Pal]

[Mike Murdock]

[james castle]

I think the depth of Matt's religious belief or non-belief is ambiguous at best and is best kept ambiguous. I think it's great that people of faith can identify with Matt and that people of unfaith can do the same. Efforts to make him very religious (Smith and also Lee Weeks come to mind) therefore usually feel a bit off.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[james castle]

I hope this isn't too spammy since I just posted my last one but I finished this quickly so here it is:

WHAT IS THE BAD GUY DOING AND WHAT DOES HE WANT? ISSUE 2.

At this stage we’re not sure who the bad guy is or how many bad guys there are. Remember, we’re looking for the big bad so henchmen don’t really count. Therefore, although Mister Gabriel is a bad guy he’s not listed because he’s just a henchman. So far the list of suspects contains:

The Putter who is definitely a bad guy but whose true identity is cloaked in mystery (and well placed comic shadows).

Mr. Macabes otherwise known by me as Tiny Colonel Sanders. We’re not sure what he’s up to or if he’s even a bad guy but he wants to murder a baby so we’re generally suspicious of him. In any event, now that we have multiple baddies and potential baddies I’ll have to be more specific about who did what and why.

1. Presumable a bad guy blew up a maternity ward. We now know that other babies were killed in hospitals all across the city. Still, we’re not sure who did this. Maybe The Putter? But why? Maybe Tiny Colonel Sanders did it. He wants to kill one baby. Maybe he already killed a bunch of babies? I’m sure we’ll get an explanation later. Why did someone do this? Unknown.

2. FACT: The Putter hired two rude dudes to kill Gwen's parents. This is basically a fact now but we still don’t know why he did it.

3. The Putter hired the two rude dudes to "eliminate" "the quarry". It’s still unclear which “quarry� is meant to be “eliminated�. BUT, Tiny Colonel Sanders tells Matt the baby must be killed. So maybe he’s working for The Putter to kill the baby? Also, Mister Gabriel catches Gwen and loads her into a limo where The unseen Putter notes that “The chase is ended�. So if The Putter wants to “eliminate� Gwen we can expect that her elimination will come along shortly and we can close this mystery. Why “the quarry� has to be “eliminated?� Unknown.

4. The Putter did not have anything to do with the apparently miraculous birth. Maybe Tiny Colonel Sanders did (if he’s lying) but since he wants to kill the baby he probably didn’t.

5. The Putter plans to intercede in a more direct way. It’s still unclear what this means Have we already seen his intercession or is it still to come?. (FUN FACT: “intercession� is a noun that means an act of interceding. It’s also mean “to pray on another’s behalf�. I suspect this is Smith tossing in religiousy words to sound smart but maybe The Putter is going to pray on behalf of someone?). Why does he have to intercede? Unknown.

6. The Putter plans to appeal to Daredevil's humanity. It’s still unclear what this means. At this point two people have appealed to DD’s humanity: Gwen when she begs him to help the baby and tiny Colonel Sanders when he begs him to kill the baby. Is The Putter behind one or both of these? It’s possible that The Putter sent the Lord’s message to Gwen somehow and that was the intercession in 5 above. But, at this point - who knows? Why is he appealing to DD’s humanity? Unknown.

7. Tiny Colonel Sanders, a member of “Sheol� (a secret society that was responsible for the creation of Spider-Man, The Hulk and Daredevil) magically schedules an appointment in Matt’s daytimer and then tells Matt the baby is the anti-Christ and has to be killed. He gives Matt 48 hours to deliver the baby to them and warns that while he has the baby bad things will happen to him. Macabes leaves behind a cross thing in Matt’s hand.

8. Tiny Colonel Sanders wants to kill the baby because it’s the anti-Christ. This is according to him.

STRANGE DOINGS AND MYSTERIES SO FAR

The Lord appears before Gwen and tells her to seek out Matt Murdock/Daredevil. She tells him that the baby is the result of a virgin birth and that he has to protect it to save the world. Interestingly, Tiny Colonel Sanders knows this because he knows what Gwen told Matt in the office. How or why he knows this is unclear.

Foggy is weirdly in love with Lydia. UPDATE: Lydia invites Foggy into her apartment for some hanky panky while someone dressed in a Dick Tracy outfit lingers in the hall.

Matt uncharacteristically beats up a mugger in a particularly over the top way.

Matt tries to throw the baby off with the roof water.

Karen shows up with AIDS in what is certainly the worst scene in the history of Daredevil comics and potentially the worst scene of anything ever. (FUN FACT: it was here that a young, wide eyed (although undergrad) james castle first raised an eyebrow and suspected that we might be in for some chop).
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Mike Murdock]

BTW, I've taken it that the putter guy and Macabes are not on the same side, but it's far from clear. I might have to re-read the first issue to see if they both want to kill the baby or if one just wants to capture it.

Honestly, at this point, the baby tossing bothers me more than Karen having AIDS at this point. Karen has had a hell of a life. I've gotten the impression she's put it away for years now so that's a long time for undiagnosed HIV, but porn and intravenous drug use together makes you a high risk to be HIV Positive. Granted, it's extremely heavy and I didn't like the "Good God"/"Forget your God after what he's done to me" lines, but it's not completely absurd. Given the dialog so far, it's mostly par for the course.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[Foggy's Pal]

[Dragonbat]

The art is really grating on me in this issue. The tension builds well, but at this point, I have to agree with Natasha about Matt being too gullible. (Yeah. I know that'll be addressed.)

Also, telling her to check the diaper? Um... shouldn't Matt KNOW if it needs changing? (And shouldn't she call him on it?)

Like the pacing, hate the art, vacillating on the writing. Some of the dialogue is wonderful. (I like the initial conversation between Matt and Natasha, until he hands her the baby). Some of Matt's internal monologue is great. And then... there are lines that take me totally out.

[Mike Murdock]

It's broad comedy. I'll admit I did chuckle, but it was probably the easiest joke to make in that situation. Either way, I wouldn't take it too seriously. I'm sure Matt knows one way or the other, even if he wouldn't admit it.

Just to give my rating. I didn't like this one as much as the first. The first was judged just on its set-up. I thought it delivered that just fine. The second one is where the story has to start to build, but it comes off as a bit too convoluted and not well-sold. While I'm sure half stars are fine, I'm sticking with whole stars for now. This one gets a three out of five.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons