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DD Book Club: Daredevil: Father
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Dimetre
Parts of a Hole


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1163
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Issue #5

I'm not sure if the first three and a half pages are written in an actually intelligible language. As far as I can tell, NeRo is recalling his father's death and funeral. A man with multiple piercings, who NeRo may or may not have known before the funeral, waves him over. This man smokes a cigar and blows the smoke at an upside-down rooster, which secretes a liquid both NeRo and the multiple-piercings man drink. Maybe this is how Ellegua came to develop his hypnotic power?

I liked Agent Guida, and I thought the scene between him and Matt was well-done. Still, it's kind of pathetic that Matt couldn't give a damn about the Johnny Sockets murders until his address book was found at the scene. This makes Matt look like an even bigger idiot than we already thought he was throughout this series.

The flashbacks to his dad in the alley were well-done, and I liked the revelation they provided.

So it looks like the case is all figured out... and Matt goes to see Sean Farrell. And he certainly is screwed up. He's there sitting at the kitchen table, holding a blood-covered knife in his hand, sipping wine and talking away. But wait... he had earlier stabbed himself in the back? How is that even possible? Never mind that he should have, at the very least, been in much more pain. Matt should have smelled a large open wound.

So the next page leads us to who Johnny Sockets actually is. I don't know why Foggy would be the next target. Maybe because the next issue is the last.

This issue is better than the last couple, possibly due to the lack of Santerians. The death of Sean was enormously sloppy. But throughout the issue the art is good and the panels flow neatly from one to the other. I give this issue a 3.
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Dragonbat
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 15 Jan 2014
Posts: 144
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before reading, my first observation is that, with his horns down, he looks more dog than devil.

Hmmm... Guida's talk about Daredevil's senses bugs me. Kingpin didn't know about them. Assumed the blindness was an act. As have most others. I guess it could be in his S.H.I.E.L.D file, but it doesn't sit right with me to hear it brought up in this matter.

The tension is building well here. The story feels tighter. Matt's address book. I'm not going to say (especially not in 2004–2006, when the internet had already become common) that the thief has to know Braille. Anyone can type 'Braille alphabet' into Google. Plus, it could be that someone tracked Matt's clients through other means and swiped the book to incriminate him. Still, it does seem to imply that the killer has it in for Matt, not Daredevil. Interesting.

Did not see that final twist coming! I think this is probably the strongest installment so far.

4 stars from me on this part.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ISSUE 5 (I can't believe it's called Here's Johnny)

Okay, so the plot in this series has been all over the place. This week, as things become clear I'm going to try to lay it out as best I can in a linear fashion. Mostly to show how dumb it is.


MAGGIE AND SEAN

1. A woman Maggie got Erin Brockoviched and hires Murdock and Nelson to sue.

2. Maggie's older husband named Sean is a jerk. He's abusive too.

3. Maggie and Sean grew up in Hell's Kitchen.

4. Sean wears Old Spice and smells like Old Spice and chemo.

5. It appears that Maggie's dad is also abusive and sketchy.

6. ANYWAY, Matt was much more interested in whether or not Maggie was being abused than he was in the actual case she hired him for so she fired him.

MEANWHILE (THE MURDERS)

7. Some lady who appears to be tied up and about to have kinky sex with some dude (?) isn't bothered by the fact that the dude (?) is wearing a jacket and gloves but is very bothered by the fact that the dude (?) pulls out a knife. The lady is killed. The killer is clearly wearing gloves and a jacket that belong to Sean!

8. The killer then kills another lady. We learn that the killer doing something gross to his victims eyes. Again the killer is wearing Sean's jacket!

9. Killer kills again but the victim is a man this time. The killer also has a book with Melvin Potter's name in it and leave it at the crime scene.

MEANWHILE (NeRo AND THE SANTERIANS)

10. Nester, the son of a Human Rights Activist, started a Junior Guardian Angels group.

11. Nester's dad was killed by the Kingpin. Nester disappeared for a bit but came back as NeRo - a media mogul who makes rap and fragrances. It appears he took part in some voodoo thing at some point with a dead chicken. He really likes tv.

12. NeRo is also behind the Santerians - a new group of vigilantes.

HOW THIS ALL COMES TOGETHER (IT REALLY DOESN'T)

13. What NeRo and the Santerians are doing in this series is completely beyond me. They ambush Matt and tell him that he should try to catch the killer. They beat Matt up and then he gets some fancy armour and kinda beats them up and they tell him again that he should find the killer. And then he goes and talks to NeRo (who he identified by his cologne). NeRo tells him that the murderer may have already been in Hell’s Kitchen! [Wait, what? Okay. What I don’t understand is why aren’t NeRo and the Santerians tracking down the killer? Why do they care about what Matt is doing?].

14. All this this Santerian business has ZERO effect because even though Matt sort of thinks he should track down the killer he doesn’t do anything until the FBI shows up and tells him that the killer had Matt’s day timer. It’s interesting to note that the series could have started with that scene. Matt is basically completely disconnected from the murder plot until it literally walks into his office smelling like Old Spice and chemo.

15. SPEAKING OF WHICH, within seconds of actually caring about the murder plot Matt solves it by smelling the day timer and smelling Old Spice and chemo. On a personal note – I assure you that prior to this Book Club I have never read this series. I made a joke way back when about Old Spice being important because the reference to it was just so ham fisted that it seemed to me that we’d have to return to it.

MYSTERY SOLVED

16. Anyway, it turns out that the killer has been killing Matt’s old clients. Now that Matt knows the killer is Sean and that he’s being set up in some way he immediately changes into his costume and goes to catch the killer! Wait. He doesn’t change into his Daredevil costume? Oh. Okay. Weird. Anyway he goes to confront Sean. It turns out Sean’s dad was beat up by Matt’s dad and that’s why he wanted to set up Matt. No, no, that’s not it. Sean took some lessons and decided that Maggie was having an affair with Matt based on very, very little evidence. So that’s why he did it! Wait! No he didn’t do it. He’s only holding a knife because Maggie stabbed him in the back! Something Matt somehow didn’t notice with all his senses for a very, very long time. Anyway, Sean didn’t do it and is dead now.

17. Maggie did! You see, she was wearing Sean’s jacket for some reason while being all murder. And get this, somehow Matt’s sense of smell picked up Sean’s scent on the jacket instead of the much stronger scent of Maggie (who was wearing the jacket). For some reason.

Next Week –We find out if Maggie murders Foggy (she doesn’t) and WHY MAGGIE DID IT!
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted Duplicate Post
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
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Last edited by james castle on Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dimetre
Parts of a Hole


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1163
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:

16. Anyway, it turns out that the killer has been killing Matt’s old clients. Now that Matt knows the killer is Sean and that he’s being set up in some way he immediately changes into his costume and goes to catch the killer! Wait. He doesn’t change into his Daredevil costume? Oh. Okay. Weird. Anyway he goes to confront Sean. It turns out Sean’s dad was beat up by Matt’s dad and that’s why he wanted to set up Matt. No, no, that’s not it. Sean took some lessons and decided that Maggie was having an affair with Matt based on very, very little evidence. So that’s why he did it! Wait! No he didn’t do it. He’s only holding a knife because Maggie stabbed him in the back! Something Matt somehow didn’t notice with all his senses for a very, very long time. Anyway, Sean didn’t do it and is dead now.

I guess it makes more sense if Maggie killed Sean, but why wouldn't she take his eyes? And why did he keep talking about something he did to her, if she had just stabbed him in the back?

I take it back. Sean's death still makes no sense. Why was he holding the knife with which she stabbed him, while not telling Matt that she stabbed him? While sipping wine.

Wow, this scene was really stupid.
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train
Guardian Devil


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been participating in the book club, but I really enjoy reading the posts. Please keep up the good work gentlemen.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:


I take it back. Sean's death still makes no sense. Why was he holding the knife with which she stabbed him, while not telling Matt that she stabbed him? While sipping wine.

Wow, this scene was really stupid.


Yeah, you'd think that at the very least he'd be like "I think Maggie (who just stabbed me a couple minutes ago) was having an affair with you!".
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Mike Murdock
Lowlife


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1415

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dragonbat wrote:
Hmmm... Guida's talk about Daredevil's senses bugs me. Kingpin didn't know about them. Assumed the blindness was an act. As have most others. I guess it could be in his S.H.I.E.L.D file, but it doesn't sit right with me to hear it brought up in this matter.


To be fair, Kingpin didn't know that Daredevil was blind. I think people knew he had senses since bad guys have been talking forever about how he can see behind him and stuff like that.

Now for my review:

Once more unto the breach dear friends, once more; or close the wall up with our English dead: Sucking it up for another round. Love the story title, hate the cover art. I have no idea what's going on at the start. With the detecive showing up: I recently got pulled over and given a ticket. I wish I could get a professional courtesy. Then again, I'm not rumored to be a costumed vigilante that saved someone's life. And... Old Spice. I will say the idea that the little girl he saved wants to be a lawyer is a nice little moment. So rarely do we check back in on those who are saved. Its the human moments that stood out in the last thing I'm aware of that Quesada wrote so I appreciate that.

Why is the title page on page 16? I know that doesn't affect anything, but it's extremely confusing. I like the encounter with Sean. I didn't quite get that he was bleeding more and more throughout until it became clear at the end that Maggie is the killer.

Overall, the whole thing is contrived, but at least there's decent pacing building up the tension. I gave him credit for that one human moment, so I'll include it in my conclusion and give him Three Stars.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chapter Six: Reunion



Due 3/21
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Dragonbat
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 15 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typing my thoughts as I read.

1. Nothing to do with the comic, but the Marvel Unlimited interface has changed. And I didn't have to refresh a bunch of times to get the issue to come up! Two pages in and I'm finding an improvement.

2. It's all coming back to his origin. Nice bit of foreshadowing.

3. Shooting Maggie after she dropped the knife doesn't sit right with me. (It would have sat better if either a. it had been clear that the cop was nervous and accidentally hit the trigger or b. she hadn't got that line out about finding a literary agent before getting shot. It feels like if she had enough time to both drop the knife and say a few words, the cop had time to realize that she wasn't a threat any longer.)

4. Can I just say how much I loathe that twist at the end? I get the temptation to revisit and flesh out origin stories. Sometimes it works. This is not one of those times. It does tie in with the 'flawed fathers' theme, but this one just feels like it was tacked on for shock value. I'm really glad that subsequent writers never (as far as I know) felt the urge to reference this or otherwise bring it into main canon.

5. That awww moment at the end is like putting whipped cream and a cherry on top of rotten sewage and I don't need Matt's hypersenses to turn my nose up at it.

6. Oh and now I have no idea what the Santerians were doing here besides giving us another flawed father when we didn't need one.

I'm going with one star for the issue. 2.5 for the mini.
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Mike Murdock
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Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here we are at the end. I like the opening page. Good teaser. I'm intrigued what the blind man has to do with anything. Although it does lie to my face in basically saying Foggy dies. The standoff is OK, but no actual answers. Since I'm using Marvel Unlimited, I was hoping the magnify text option would reveal what was said, but not quite. Not sure why the detective shot her. Seemed he was a little too jumpy.

The climax is fine. Not sure I like making the blind man more important than he need be, but I have nothing against it for this story. The ending is ambiguous, but I get the impression that Daredevil rises above his anger. That it's the whole point of Jack Murdock and saving Matt's soul (although I suppose it could just be saying Jack's better than that guy). Overall, even though it's longer than a normal comic length, it felt way shorter.

I'll give it Three Stars. Better than some parts, but not the greatest overall.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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The Overlord
Paradiso


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I signed up for Marvel Unlimited recently and I read most of this mini series (except issue 3, unfortunately).

This mini series seemed like a good idea with a lackluster execution, the mystery is okay, but could have been better (Sean's death was pretty stupid) and the Santerians are rather pointless, only there for actions scenes.

Either Santerians should been removed and replaced by some familiar super villain for action scenes who could be better connected to the plot or this whole story should been a straight up mystery story, with almost no real action in it.

Also I am not sure I like the ending, there is no way Matt could have know the blind man he saved was a monster, so it seems really unfair for Maggie to blame him for her screwed up life, instead of her father. If Spider-Man saved a guy from a mugger and that guy turned out to be a serial killer, no sane person would fault Spidey for saving that guy, given the info he had at the time.
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Dragonbat
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonah might Wink But I agree with you wholeheartedly on Matt's (lack of) culpability.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think any sane person is actually saying Matt's blameworthy, just one person who has mental problems because of her father.

For the Santerians, I admittedly missed an entire issue, but I agree they were pointless. I liked the idea of introducing a Hispanic vigilante group. Maybe if they the story had actually been about them, they would have worked. But they overall fell flat. They seemed to exist so NeRo could be a suspect in the mystery, maybe? I don't know.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ISSUE 6 (Oh that's rough. That's really, really rough.)

Okay, so the plot in this series has been all over the place. I'm just going to focus on the central mystery to see what the heck happened in this pile of trash as a story. As you'll see, all reference to NeRo and his team of whatever is gone because they played no actual part in the story.


1. As a young boy Matt heroically saved an old man from being hit by a truck. In both the original origin in Daredevil #1 and in the iconic retelling in Daredevil #53 the old man who got saved is super old and has completely white hair and a moustache. BUT, it turns out that he was actually quite a bit younger. Oh yeah, and, it also turns out he was an alcoholic child molester who molested his daughter (who was named Maggie). Yep. Let’s all just let that sink in. The old man that Matt saved in his defining moment or selfless heroism was an alcoholic paedophile.

2. Maggie grows up and moves away (but not that far away) to New Jersey and gets cancer from wherever she’s living.

3. While she’s in the doctor’s office she sees a newspaper article from Bendis’ run identifying Matt as Daredevil. It suddenly hits her that Matt is responsible for all of her problems. If Matt hadn’t saved her paedo father she would have never been molested and never have moved to Jersey and therefore wouldn’t have gotten cancer. Wait. What’s going on? So she somehow knew that Matt Murdock was the kid who saved her dad? Okay, that’s possible. Like news got around in the community back then. But then why didn’t she always just hate Matt Murdock? How does him being Daredevil change anything? Obviously she didn’t think that Daredevil saved her father. Because he didn’t. Matt did. So she should have always just hated Matt. The fact that Matt is also Daredevil has nothing to do with anything. Also, why does she blame Matt for the molesting and the cancer? He saved her father sure but it was her father that did the actual molesting. I assume she killed him? Right? No? Also: she kept a scrapbook about Matt? Why? Okay, well the cancer is way off. Like, that’s really not Matt’s fault. That is primarily the company’s fault and then secondarily her father’s fault. She should sue the company.

4. Two years later Maggie hires Murdock and Nelson to sue the company. BUT, she doesn’t really want to sue the company – even though that would make literally all the sense in the world. She just wants to steal Matt’s day timer.

5. Oh yeah, it’s a heat wave. We know this because the summary page keeps saying there’s a heat wave. Maybe a few characters say it too. But it has ZERO impact on anything that happens.

6. ANYWAY, Matt was much more interested in whether or not Maggie was being abused than he was in the actual case she hired him for so she fired him even though she clearly had no intention of going through with the law suit anyway. She just wanted the day timer. Which raises the question - why did she pursue the lawsuit beyond the first meeting? Unless she was pretending to go along with the law suit to keep tabs on Matt. But if that's the case why would she fire Matt?

MEANWHILE (THE MURDERS)

7. Maggie kills some lady while wearing gloves and a jacket that belong to Sean.

8. Maggie then kills another lady. We learn that Maggie is doing something gross to the victims eyes. Again Maggie is wearing Sean's jacket!

9. Maggie kills again but the victim is a man this time. Maggie leaves Matt’s day timer at the scene. Wait. Okay, so did she steal the day timer just so she could leave it there? Or did she steal it to get victims’ names? It sort of seems like the former but also kinda like the latter?

10. The FBI shows up and tells Matt that the killer had Matt’s day timer.

11. Within seconds of actually caring about the murder plot Matt solves it by smelling the day timer and smelling Old Spice and chemo.

12. Anyway, it turns out that the killer has been killing Matt’s old clients. Now that Matt thinks the killer is Sean and that he’s being set up in some way he immediately changes into his costume and goes to catch the killer! Wait. He doesn’t change into his Daredevil costume? Oh. Okay. Weird. Anyway he goes to confront Sean. It turns out Sean’s dad was beat up by Matt’s dad and that’s why he wanted to set up Matt. No, no, that’s not it. Sean took some lessons and decided that Maggie was having an affair with Matt based on very, very little evidence. So that’s why he did it! Wait! No he didn’t do it. He’s only holding a knife because Maggie stabbed him in the back! Something Matt somehow didn’t notice with all his senses for a very, very long time. Anyway, Sean didn’t do it and is dead now.

13. Maggie did! You see, she was wearing Sean’s jacket for some reason while being all murdery. And get this, somehow Matt’s sense of smell picked up Sean’s scent on the jacket instead of the much stronger scent of Maggie (who was wearing the jacket). For some reason.

14. Matt, still in explicably in his suit (does he still have a costume?) swings back to his office. On the way he notes that if only he had questioned his subconscious he could have saved a dozen murder victims. WHAT? Why would his subconscious know anything? Also, there have been over a dozen murders? Since when? Surely that means that Maggie was killing people before the she stole the day timer, right? Or she just killed over a dozen people SUPER fast.

15. Matt confronts Maggie and she’s shot to death by the police. Right before dying she tells him about the worst retcon that ever existed.

16. Matt puts on his costume (finally) to go confront the blind father. So when he confronts NeRo and Sean and Maggie and when he’s chasing the cab – no costume. When he’s specifically going to talk to a blind guy and plans to tell that blind guy that’s he’s Matt Murdock – costume. Sigh.

17. Matt inexplicably thinks happy thoughts about his father.
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