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What is appropriate for a Daredevil story?

 
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The Overlord
Paradiso


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: What is appropriate for a Daredevil story? Reply with quote

When we were discussing the Man Without Fear mini series, there was a discussion about whether Kingpin's plan to kidnap children and force them into prostitution was appropriate for a DD comic. Many other dark elements have worked their way into the DD title over the decades. Bullseye is a mass murderer, in Guardian Devil, there were corpses of homeless people Bullseye murdered, even the way he killed Elektra back in the 80s was somewhat controversial. Also Purple Man and Mr. Fear are both serial rapists now (though with Purple Man that was revealed in Alias rather then in Daredevil, but Waid dealt with this when he used Purple Man in DD recently).

So what is appropriate for a Daredevil story?
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Marcus Plato
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Joined: 15 Sep 2011
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly what I love about DD is the "no holds barred" approach. I think that as long as good triumphs over evil, writers shouldn't limit themselves to non-controversial subject matter. That's why I love Bullseye but can't stand Stilt-Man. I wouldn't recommend young children read the darker stories, but the last thing we need is Comics Code era censorship. Kingpin, for example, has ordered the deaths of countless people since he became DD's main villain, but if he simply ordered the robbing of banks or the theft of artworks, he would be very bland indeed.
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Ash-n-Bone
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Joined: 08 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^yep I totally agree. Of course there is the chance that writers will just explore controversial topics simply for shock value but I don't think that's happened in DD yet. Most of the time it amps up the drama to great effect. I think it was in Bendis run where Fisk had a man at the ready to rape and murder another mob boss wife. There's also an issue (Nocenti I think) where Karen is helping Matt search for kids being forced into porn. To me, it adds that darkness to the story where we see Daredevil operate at his best.
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Darkdevil
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Joined: 04 Apr 2009
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Location: The Bright, Sunny South

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Daredevil is meant to be a street-level fighter/hero, then it only makes sense that he oppose street-level violence and crime, which includes drug trafficking, human slave rings, child porn, serial rapists, and such.

Yes, it's darker material but as long as the writer treats the subject with respect and attention, then I don't see why we couldn't have good, if not great, stories arise from that. (I mean, didn't Dick Wolf build a Law & Order TV empire off of this precept?)

Similar to Batman, it's when DD rises up to face the larger cosmic/world-conquering threats that are more usual to the MU that he begins to stumble.
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Mike Murdock
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Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I have no problem with it in principle. I think the story lacked quite a bit of subtlety, though. There isn't a massive wave of kidnappings off the streets of New York City. If there were, it would be a national news story. These things happen on that massive scale in other countries and they are imported here and it happens here on a small scale. Really, that was my only problem with Man Without Fear. It didn't really ring true.
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The Overlord
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Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ash-n-Bone wrote:
^yep I totally agree. Of course there is the chance that writers will just explore controversial topics simply for shock value but I don't think that's happened in DD yet. Most of the time it amps up the drama to great effect. I think it was in Bendis run where Fisk had a man at the ready to rape and murder another mob boss wife. There's also an issue (Nocenti I think) where Karen is helping Matt search for kids being forced into porn. To me, it adds that darkness to the story where we see Daredevil operate at his best.


See I think Kingpin threatening to have someone's wife raped seems out of character, as did the whole child kidnapping plot from Man Without Fear. I think Kingpin should be comparable to Nucky Thompson or Walter White, very cruel and ruthless, but having a few standards. Kingpin has had some humanizing traits that other DD villains have lacked, he loves his family and he was willing to adopt that Spanish family as his own, that doesn't seem like the same guy who would kidnap kids and force them into prostitution.

I also don't think Kingpin has to have someone raped to prove he is a bad guy, DD already has a couple of villains willing to cross that line, I think Kingpin is more unique if he doesn't at this point.

If Kingpin is just as evil as Bullseye, Purple Man and Mr. Fear, then what is the difference between him and these other villains? Also Owl is presented as far more vicious and unstable crime boss compared to Kingpin, so I think Kingpin having some lines he won't cross that Owl will, makes for a more interesting contrast then saying both Kingpin and Owl are just evil psychopaths with no real difference between them.
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admiralpetty
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Joined: 22 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Overlord wrote:
Ash-n-Bone wrote:
^yep I totally agree. Of course there is the chance that writers will just explore controversial topics simply for shock value but I don't think that's happened in DD yet. Most of the time it amps up the drama to great effect. I think it was in Bendis run where Fisk had a man at the ready to rape and murder another mob boss wife. There's also an issue (Nocenti I think) where Karen is helping Matt search for kids being forced into porn. To me, it adds that darkness to the story where we see Daredevil operate at his best.


See I think Kingpin threatening to have someone's wife raped seems out of character, as did the whole child kidnapping plot from Man Without Fear. I think Kingpin should be comparable to Nucky Thompson or Walter White, very cruel and ruthless, but having a few standards. Kingpin has had some humanizing traits that other DD villains have lacked, he loves his family and he was willing to adopt that Spanish family as his own, that doesn't seem like the same guy who would kidnap kids and force them into prostitution.

I also don't think Kingpin has to have someone raped to prove he is a bad guy, DD already has a couple of villains willing to cross that line, I think Kingpin is more unique if he doesn't at this point.

If Kingpin is just as evil as Bullseye, Purple Man and Mr. Fear, then what is the difference between him and these other villains? Also Owl is presented as far more vicious and unstable crime boss compared to Kingpin, so I think Kingpin having some lines he won't cross that Owl will, makes for a more interesting contrast then saying both Kingpin and Owl are just evil psychopaths with no real difference between them.


I think people tend to give the Kingpin to much credit sometimes, and the Walter White comparison is incredibly off mark. The Kingpin is a thoroughly evil SOB. He has a human side sure, but most evil people in real life have a human side as well. I remember reading about members of the Nazis who would torture Jewish people by day in the concentration camps and then return home at night as model fathers and husbands.

I love the fact that Miller introduced a human side to the Kingpin during his run by introducing Vanessa, if anything, adding her character added to the tragedy of the Kingpin, he was incredibly close to turning his back on the crime world for good when things took a turn for the worst with his wife(although the argument could be made that he had to much darkness in him to really turn his back on crime for good). However, in that story, it showed that she was really his only link to humanity, one that was damaged when she became more or less catatonic, and severed when she left him in Miller's followup graphic novel Love and War(although I guess it wasn't completely severed since DD was able to use Vanessa's picture to get to him in The Fall of The Kingpin arc). Those events set the stage for the monstrous Kingpin that we saw in the events of Born Again, a man who relished the act of destroying a good man and set Nuke loose in Hell's Kitchen killing countless innocents.

The fact of the matter is, the Kingpin is incredibly evil. See also how he manipulated Echo for years after murdering her father. Just because he has moments of humanity, that doesn't mean that he isn't capable of incredible acts of evil and indecency. The fact is, Miller, the writer who introduced the Kingpin as a DD villain, set the tone for this himself in all of his writing prior to even doing Man Without Fear.

As for the Owl comparison, the difference between the two has always been the fact that the Owl is not a particularly cunning crime lord in the way that the Kingpin is, due to the fact that the Owl is more bestial and rage filled, whereas the Kingpin is a cold and cunning strategist. Both are psychopaths sure, but there can be a world of difference between one psychopath to another. The Kingpin prefers to let his underlings do the dirty work for him, always ordering rather than actually committing the acts himself, further distancing him from the atrocious things he is responsible for.

As for Man Without Fear, that story is not strictly canon, nor was it ever intended to be, Miller even disregards some of his own writing in that story(particularly in regards to Elektra). In the context of that story however, I am not bothered by what he has the Kingpin do, this was intended to be the character at his most despicable. Seeing as how the original script was meant for DD movie, it does kind of make sense that he portrays the characters in broad strokes(although it can still be disappointing for longtime fans). The only reason that story is confusing as to the state of whether it is true canon or not is because DD writers on the main title have referenced it quite frequently through the years, but the haven't taken everything from it, namely its portrayal of Elektra and the Kingpin's involvement in child pornography.
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Thayrone Ibsen
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Joined: 13 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are in the "tv show" vibe, where the characters receive more traits due to the fact that they are "stars". So, people are going to relate even more to the Kingpin idiot, because the tv show is going to make him "more human", basically the reverse Matt Murdock.
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Thayrone Ibsen
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's always the same disgusting thing, people prefer and defend the live action adaptations, because of the DUMB idea that, because it is in live action, it's better than the graphic novel!
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