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| What did you think of DAREDEVIL #14? |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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 Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Acerbus wrote: |
I was actually confusing the Jack Battlin storyline with the ridiculous Lobdell arc right before the reboot where Matt Murdock was an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. living under some assumed French name, and had his memories rewired or something.
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Not to get too off topic but there's actually a great interview with Lobdell on this site where he gives a very frank account of howing Flying Blind came about. He was basically just killing time on the title before Smith came on so tried something sort of fun and wacky. I think we all sort of agree that it didn't work but I'm all for writers taking weird chances like that.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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beneverett
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What I find most galling about the Waid era... is that a large contingent of comic-related media still consider it superb. I really, really don't get it. |
Good grief, we just can't have nice things.
Here's a concept you might want to mull over. Maybe that "large contingent" actually has a point and this run has been really good. I'll grant that the public isn't always right - but they are most of the time. |
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Acerbus
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| beneverett wrote: |
Good grief, we just can't have nice things.
Here's a concept you might want to mull over. Maybe that "large contingent" actually has a point and this run has been really good. I'll grant that the public isn't always right - but they are most of the time. |
Please.
Waid's entire run was built to capitalize on the contrarian 'anti-grimdark' sentiment broiling in comic circles post-Dark Knight. It's no less exploitative than anything Liefeld was doing on Youngblood to capitalize on the 'big guns and women with bent spines' grim-n-gritty period of the early '90s. |
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Naked Bat
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Are we really comparing Mark Waid to Rob Liefield? Seriously? |
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Naked Bat
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Daredevil24 wrote: | | Acerbus wrote: | | Mike Murdock wrote: | .
I think you have your timeline mixed up. Jack Battlin came before the Karl Kesel run. |
Yeah, thanks for straightening me out on that. It's been awhile since I re-read all of volume 1 in succession, and at least for me, everything after 'Fall from Grace' is sort of a blur.
I was actually confusing the Jack Battlin storyline with the ridiculous Lobdell arc right before the reboot where Matt Murdock was an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. living under some assumed French name, and had his memories rewired or something.
Either way, my point about the post-Kesel period being awful stands. I think without a hard reboot, Waid's run will leave the book in similar straits.
What I find most galling about the Waid era... is that a large contingent of comic-related media still consider it superb. I really, really don't get it. I think it may be couched in a cult of personality effect. I remain convinced that if Joe Quesada had written some of the ridiculous storylines Waid has over the past two years, those same fanboys would be raking him over the coals. |
Your last sentence holds a lot of weight.Had Quesada did this to Matt he'd be crucified as would Bendis.Waid is the golden boy and has his fans just like Grant Morrison.I hope Secret Wars fixes this fast.It's a travesty that this book will be published with the show. |
Waid is not a golden boy. He can make mistakes. Not all of his work is great. But he's without a doubt leagues above Quesada or Liefeld. You're seriously gonna compare what Waid did on Daredevil with Daredevil: Father? Really? |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Naked Bat wrote: | | Daredevil24 wrote: | | Acerbus wrote: | | Mike Murdock wrote: | .
I think you have your timeline mixed up. Jack Battlin came before the Karl Kesel run. |
Yeah, thanks for straightening me out on that. It's been awhile since I re-read all of volume 1 in succession, and at least for me, everything after 'Fall from Grace' is sort of a blur.
I was actually confusing the Jack Battlin storyline with the ridiculous Lobdell arc right before the reboot where Matt Murdock was an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. living under some assumed French name, and had his memories rewired or something.
Either way, my point about the post-Kesel period being awful stands. I think without a hard reboot, Waid's run will leave the book in similar straits.
What I find most galling about the Waid era... is that a large contingent of comic-related media still consider it superb. I really, really don't get it. I think it may be couched in a cult of personality effect. I remain convinced that if Joe Quesada had written some of the ridiculous storylines Waid has over the past two years, those same fanboys would be raking him over the coals. |
Your last sentence holds a lot of weight.Had Quesada did this to Matt he'd be crucified as would Bendis.Waid is the golden boy and has his fans just like Grant Morrison.I hope Secret Wars fixes this fast.It's a travesty that this book will be published with the show. |
Waid is not a golden boy. He can make mistakes. Not all of his work is great. But he's without a doubt leagues above Quesada or Liefeld. You're seriously gonna compare what Waid did on Daredevil with Daredevil: Father? Really? |
Yes,I am absolutely saying I'd take Quesada's Daredevil Father over Waid's Daredevil.The whole revelation with the man he saved was ridiculous but I'll take six bad issues over all the silly stuff I've seen from Waid over the last four years.I can't even recognize Murdock and that's a huge problem for me.Daredevil Father wasn't even that bad for me.It's easily forgettable.Waid has gotten Miller level praise with some of the worst characterization I've seen in Daredevil since the sixties. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Daredevil24 wrote: | | Yes,I am absolutely saying I'd take Quesada's Daredevil Father over Waid's Daredevil.The whole revelation with the man he saved was ridiculous but I'll take six bad issues over all the silly stuff I've seen from Waid over the last four years.I can't even recognize Murdock and that's a huge problem for me.Daredevil Father wasn't even that bad for me.It's easily forgettable.Waid has gotten Miller level praise with some of the worst characterization I've seen in Daredevil since the sixties. |
Wow. Mystery solved. You have terrible taste in comics.
I'm not saying Waid is the best or that I love his run (although it's had some great moments) but anyone who complains about Waid's "characterization" while defending Father is just completely out to lunch.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Well I guess you missed the part where I said Quesada was ridiculous as well.I simply said I'd take six of Quesada's bad issues over Waid's four years of junk and for the most part Matt still felt like Matt as far as personality went for most of the series.Pay attention to what I said my friend.I was hardly defending Quesada.And if you're going to speak to me be respectful please.I never told you you have terrible taste because of what you like or don't like.
Last edited by Daredevil24 on Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Acerbus
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Naked Bat wrote: | | Are we really comparing Mark Waid to Rob Liefield? Seriously? |
Can you really not recognize the difference between analogy and comparison? Seriously?
(Edit: Strike that. Given Waid's writing skills, I can understand why you may struggle with basic literary concepts)
Rob Liefeld exploited the late-'80s/mid-'90s "Grimdark Boom".
Mark Waid is exploiting the current explosion of self-aware retro-snark to cater to legions of obnoxious anti-'grimdark' hipsters. (For most of whom, the novelty of a happy-go-lucky Daredevil wore off over a year ago)
The analog is valid insomuch as both men hopped on a trend. And raked in undeserved accolades for it.
And both men wore thin very quickly.
This isn't circuitous logic.
And no one compared Waid to Quesada.
It was a statement about Waid's absurd 'cult of personality'.
If Quesada had written the exact same awful Daredevil comics Waid has over the past four years - word for word - I theorized that most Waid fans would despise him. For the inconsistent characterizations, for the hamfisted pop culture snark, for the fact that his artists have been carrying him for the entire run.
Because it isn't about the quality of Waid's storytelling, or the lack of Quesada's. It's about them enjoying Mark Waid. And not enjoying Quesada. And wanting to make some arbitrary point about the fact that 'ZOMG comics don't need to be dark' at Daredevil's expense. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Acerbus wrote: | | Naked Bat wrote: | | Are we really comparing Mark Waid to Rob Liefield? Seriously? |
Can you really not recognize the difference between analogy and comparison? Seriously?
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Can you?
| Quote: |
a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē
noun
a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
"an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies"
a correspondence or partial similarity.
"the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia"
a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects.
"works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature" |
There is no difference between analogy and comparison really. An analogy is a type of comparison. When you draw an analogy between Waid and Liefield you are, by definition, drawing a comparison. So you are comparing Waid to Liefield.
If you're going to try to batter someone by playing some ridiculous linguistic "I'm smarter than you" game you better be pretty certain you are, in fact, smarter.
Or you end up looking like an idiot.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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beneverett
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Rob Liefeld exploited the late-'80s/mid-'90s "Grimdark Boom".
Mark Waid is exploiting the current explosion of self-aware retro-snark to cater to legions of obnoxious anti-'grimdark' hipsters. (For most of whom, the novelty of a happy-go-lucky Daredevil wore off over a year ago)
The analog is valid insomuch as both men hopped on a trend. And raked in undeserved accolades for it.
And both men wore thin very quickly.
That doesn't really make any sense. If (and I might be misunderstanding this) it's only an arbitrary outpouring of support for Waid that has kept his run in the limelight - then why didn't his run on HULK get a similar response? It's fine if you don't like the stories, but I think that what you're saying is a little disingenuous to readers and the creators - though even I admit having similar attitudes about other things from time-to-time myself. No, the book has garnered it's support because the stores are well told and the readers recognize that. Not because of the fanbase a writer is supposed to have or said writer taking advantage of some current popular trend. RL & MW have been in the business roughly the same amount of time, but there is a reason why one continues to get more work than the other. And it's got nothing to do with gimmicks or trends and more to do with talent and craftsmanship. |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| beneverett wrote: | Rob Liefeld exploited the late-'80s/mid-'90s "Grimdark Boom".
Mark Waid is exploiting the current explosion of self-aware retro-snark to cater to legions of obnoxious anti-'grimdark' hipsters. (For most of whom, the novelty of a happy-go-lucky Daredevil wore off over a year ago)
The analog is valid insomuch as both men hopped on a trend. And raked in undeserved accolades for it.
And both men wore thin very quickly.
That doesn't really make any sense. If (and I might be misunderstanding this) it's only an arbitrary outpouring of support for Waid that has kept his run in the limelight - then why didn't his run on HULK get a similar response? It's fine if you don't like the stories, but I think that what you're saying is a little disingenuous to readers and the creators - though even I admit having similar attitudes about other things from time-to-time myself. No, the book has garnered it's support because the stores are well told and the readers recognize that. Not because of the fanbase a writer is supposed to have or said writer taking advantage of some current popular trend. RL & MW have been in the business roughly the same amount of time, but there is a reason why one continues to get more work than the other. And it's got nothing to do with gimmicks or trends and more to do with talent and craftsmanship. |
Well said, ben. It's also worth pointing out that the Mark Waid/Paulo Rivera DAREDEVIL run arguably established that upbeat, retro storytelling style that a lot of subsequent Marvel titles in their lineup have successfully emulated. So it was less a case of him hopping on a trend than creating that trend. |
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Acerbus
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Acerbus wrote: |
a correspondence or partial similarity.
"the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia"
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There is no difference between analogy and comparison really. An analogy is a type of comparison. When you draw an analogy between Waid and Liefield you are, by definition, drawing a comparison. So you are comparing Waid to Liefield.
If you're going to try to batter someone by playing some ridiculous linguistic "I'm smarter than you" game you better be pretty certain you are, in fact, smarter.
Or you end up looking like an idiot. |
Hi there. Speaking of chest-slapping, paste-swilling idiocy...
As you may have noted, having copied and pasted verbatim from webster's like a junior high school student having their first argument... there are three acceptable definitions of the term.
Guess which definition fits what I did? A 'correspondence'. Not a comparison. Meaning a 'similarity of circumstance'.
Not of individuals, you leaning tower of intellect, you.
You're essentially arguing that if I said that both Winston Churchill and Adam West wore socks... that I just equated Adam West to Winston Churchill.
They both did the same thing. That doesn't make them even remotely similar as human beings, and no one at all claimed it did. So no. No one compared Waid to Liefeld. You plucked that from thin air yourself.
| WilsonFisk wrote: |
It's also worth pointing out that the Mark Waid/Paulo Rivera DAREDEVIL run arguably established that upbeat, retro storytelling style that a lot of subsequent Marvel titles in their lineup have successfully emulated. So it was less a case of him hopping on a trend than creating that trend. |
I'm not opposed to admitting that may be the case. Although I'd hasten to note that the 'anti-grimdark brigade' had been swelling their ranks since 2008, as an aberrant, reflexive overcorrection of taste in response to the success of The Dark Knight, not to mention the lunacy of One More Day.
You could easily argue that people like Warren Ellis already spearheaded this to great effect on comics like Nextwave. (Going back even further... Karl Kesel's DD tenure exists)
Either way, it was a novelty. And like all novelty acts, it wore thin quickly.
Your Hulk comparison (unlike my Liefeld/Waid analog... an actual comparison) is not apt. Hulk is a completely different character, with a completely different tone. Hulk being given a cavalier attitudinal makeover for the benefit of skinny-jeans-bedecked hipsters... is really not terribly different, in a material sense, than Dan Slott's comedic run on She-Hulk, or other, more comedic takes on Hulk himself. Daredevil being made happy-go-lucky makes him a figurehead for the entire newly-established tiresome trope of "Hey, remember how dark this used to be? Now it's HAPPY! And that's where the depth begins and ends!" |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see why people have to choose either/or when it comes to "light" vs "dark" (though I'd argue there's both more humor in the dark stuff and more darkness in the light stuff than some give either credit for). I love Mark Waid and Chris Samnee's Daredevil. I also love Frank Miller's Daredevil. And Brian Michael Bendis and Alex Maleev's Daredevil. And Ed Brubaker and Michael Lark's Daredevil. I don't think that Waid and Samnee's run should be dismissed by virtue of being different. Rather I think it's a testament to the strength of Matt Murdock as a character that he can be in stories with vastly different aesthetics and tones and still remain true to who he is.
I think it's underselling Daredevil to assume that he is simply his surroundings and the palette his world is drawn in. When something is strong, it doesn't break when pushed, it bends. And Matt Murdock is a character that has shown he can adapt and even thrive in a new environment, while still retaining enough of who he is for when things revert back to something more familiar.
Personally speaking, I've been a fan of Daredevil comics since the 90s, but I've never found Daredevil/Matt Murdock more likeable and relatable than since Waid took over, and it's during this run that Daredevil has crystalised for me from being a character I like to being my favourite character in the Marvel Universe. |
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thomam
Flying Blind
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 48
Location: Louisville, Ky
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:15 pm Post subject: Just |
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| I just got this book in the mail today. I read it while taking a dump. I enjoyed taking the dump. |
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