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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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 Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Dragonbat wrote: | | No mention of whether Foggy will still be part of the book. I really really hope he is... |
Yes, that was conveniently absent. And if Matt is an ADA now, what does that mean for Foggy's career and life?
I'm excited to see Soule's passion for the book and character. While Matt becoming an ADA may seem unusual, I think it opens up interesting storytelling avenues. Plus, after 8 months, we don't know why he would choose to take up such a position.
An illegal immigrant as his sidekick? That's unusual and different as well. Why would Matt accept mentoring this kid? What can this kid do that makes him a good fit as a sidekick to DD? What is his ultimate goal(s)?
For me, 'all-new' is sounding more and more interesting. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: |
To be fair, Daredevil clearly has given up on some his enemies. Psychos like Bullseye, Mr. Fear and Purple Man have clearly demonstrated they have no interest in reforming and I doubt Matt would have any pity for those guys at this point, those people clearly belong in prison. |
Of that, I agree completely. But I don't think it undermines the other cases. I'm not saying Matt couldn't be a prosecutor, just that it cuts out a lot of potential stories for what ends up sacrificing complexity for what would essentially be a single-driven narrative.
| Quote: | | Justice means defending the innocent and punishing the guilty |
I would argue that justice is ensuring fair treatment for everyone in the system and appropriate punishment for those who committed the crime after they have been found guilty. Justice means defending both the guilty and the innocent and ensuring that the rule of law is followed. Justice is ensuring that no innocent person is convicted and that all rules are followed. Daredevil, of course, breaks those rules all the time.
Like I said, I think it could be a good idea. I think there are some good stories here. But what I don't want is someone to go down this route because they didn't really understand how the previous idea fit with Matt Murdock's character.
| Quote: | | Also in the Wire, they had some pretty corrupt and slimy defense attorneys, who broke the law to get their obviously guilty clients off the hook , so I don't think defense attorneys are instantly more moral then prosecutors, it depends on how they are written. |
One of my biggest disappointments with The Wire is it did an excellent job of portraying everyone with nuance and sympathy. Even terrible people (people that would fit your above description of people who aren't sympathetic and should be locked away) were portrayed as sympathetic and understandable and a product of their environment (while still complex human beings). David Simon's portrayal of defense attorneys did exactly none of that. Maurice Levy was a slimeball, unethical drug lawyer who was essentially a major component of a criminal enterprise. Are there lawyers like that? Absolutely - particularly in organized crime. I wouldn't be surprised if Levy is based on a real person. But I would have loved the defense bar (particularly through Baltimore's Public Defender system) to have been treated as sympathetically as drug dealers were.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: |
To be fair, Daredevil clearly has given up on some his enemies. Psychos like Bullseye, Mr. Fear and Purple Man have clearly demonstrated they have no interest in reforming and I doubt Matt would have any pity for those guys at this point, those people clearly belong in prison. |
Of that, I agree completely. But I don't think it undermines the other cases. I'm not saying Matt couldn't be a prosecutor, just that it cuts out a lot of potential stories for what ends up sacrificing complexity for what would essentially be a single-driven narrative. |
Well Matt having a boss and being in a large organization can create new moral dilemmas for him to deal with. If the DA is trying to railroad someone, Matt can have arguments with his boss about it and try to find the real guilty party. Giving Matt someone to butt heads with can open new moral dilemmas for him.
There could be a story where a mobster or a tycoon is trying to buy their buy their way to freedom, even though its clear they are guilty and they are using all sorts of illegal and immoral tactics to do just that, like intimidating witnesses, bribing officials. DD making sure these people do not use their power to escape the law could be a good story and it would make more sense if he was working for the DA that he deal with these type of criminals in court.
Plus I would like to see more DD villains as more developed characters, which would justify Matt's optimism, too many don't get enough characterization to justify Matt's opinions or are just hard core psychos. Matt should not be so naive that he starts seeing things in criminals that simply are not there.
If DD does believe in reform, why is Gladiator the only villain he helped out that way, why couldn't he convince someone like Stilt-Man to quit crime before the Punisher blew him up?
| Quote: | | Justice means defending the innocent and punishing the guilty |
| Mike Murdock wrote: |
I would argue that justice is ensuring fair treatment for everyone in the system and appropriate punishment for those who committed the crime after they have been found guilty. Justice means defending both the guilty and the innocent and ensuring that the rule of law is followed. Justice is ensuring that no innocent person is convicted and that all rules are followed. Daredevil, of course, breaks those rules all the time. |
True, but prosecutors are still needed to make system work, just as much as defense lawyers are.
If someone is guilty of a heinious crime, it can the prosecutor's job to get justice for the victims by taking victimizers off the streets, to make sure no less is victimized by that person. If the prosecutors have proven someone committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, they have done an important service to the legal system, especially if the crimes are very heinious. That can just as important as defending people in court. I think DD can do a lot of good by putting some pretty awful criminals away, legally and by the book.
| Mike Murdock wrote: |
Like I said, I think it could be a good idea. I think there are some good stories here. But what I don't want is someone to go down this route because they didn't really understand how the previous idea fit with Matt Murdock's character. |
I don't think that is the case, I think Soule just wants to explore a different part of the legal system. I would at least praise him for going in a new direction, too many writers want to just ape Miller.
| Quote: | | Also in the Wire, they had some pretty corrupt and slimy defense attorneys, who broke the law to get their obviously guilty clients off the hook , so I don't think defense attorneys are instantly more moral then prosecutors, it depends on how they are written. |
| Mike Murdock wrote: |
One of my biggest disappointments with The Wire is it did an excellent job of portraying everyone with nuance and sympathy. Even terrible people (people that would fit your above description of people who aren't sympathetic and should be locked away) were portrayed as sympathetic and understandable and a product of their environment (while still complex human beings). David Simon's portrayal of defense attorneys did exactly none of that. Maurice Levy was a slimeball, unethical drug lawyer who was essentially a major component of a criminal enterprise. Are there lawyers like that? Absolutely - particularly in organized crime. I wouldn't be surprised if Levy is based on a real person. But I would have loved the defense bar (particularly through Baltimore's Public Defender system) to have been treated as sympathetically as drug dealers were. |
Fair enough, I just disagree with the idea that defense lawyers are instantly more moral then prosecutors.
I have seen some immoral defense lawyers (like the lawyer who defended Canadian serial killer Paul Bernardo, he hid evidence from the police that would their case easier) and seen some good prosecutors and I have seen bad prosecutors and good defense lawyers. In fiction which side is more sympathetic depends on the writer. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:38 am Post subject: |
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I never said defense attorneys were more moral than prosecutors, btw (or even suggested it).
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!
I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Defence lawyers are more moral than prosecutors.
Hahaha. Just kidding (but not really). At the end of the day it's an incredibly complex issue (kinda). At the very least it's a very difficult issue because there's a pretty massive gap between the theory and the reality of it. It's funny that someone mentioned Law & Order presenting prosecutors in a heroic light because I used to looooooove Law & Order as a kid. I thought Stone and McCoy were the greatest. In fact, when I went to law school I wanted desperately to be a Crown (Canadian prosecutor) so I could "seek justice" and "fight the good fight". Then someone took me to criminal court for the first time and things started to blur.
I think it's very nice to think of DA's and Crowns keeping rapist and murderers off the street. That all sounds very good but the reality is that the vast majority of accused people are poor people (and poor minorities at that) charged with relatively small stuff. The day in, day out of criminal courts, at a certain level of abstraction, is privileged (usually white) people working to put poor (usually minority) people in jail. So it's kinda gross.
That said, I doubt Soule is going to present that kind of reality in the comic. It'll all be Law & Order stuff where all the criminals are truly evil and dangerous and everything is presented in a theoretical way - i.e. Matt is just trying to hold the guilty to account. Far from bringing his real world experience as a lawyer to bare, I assume it'll just be surface level "criminals are baddies!" stuff. Which is fine. I guess. But boring a bit.
The other thing is that, as someone mentioned, if Matt starts doing Daredevily stuff to assist with his prosecution cases there is a massive, massive issue. The State, quite properly, is held to a higher account. At least in Canada the prosecution has to share all of its evidence and investigation with the defence. Therefore, in theory, if Matt went out and did some DD investigation he'd have to share the results with the defence lawyers or it would be a miscarriage of justice. Again, I doubt Soule would get that detailed but still.
Finally, one of the reasons I became a defence lawyer was because of Daredevil (kinda). Now what am I supposed to do?
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: |
One of my biggest disappointments with The Wire is it did an excellent job of portraying everyone with nuance and sympathy. Even terrible people (people that would fit your above description of people who aren't sympathetic and should be locked away) were portrayed as sympathetic and understandable and a product of their environment (while still complex human beings). David Simon's portrayal of defense attorneys did exactly none of that. Maurice Levy was a slimeball, unethical drug lawyer who was essentially a major component of a criminal enterprise. Are there lawyers like that? Absolutely - particularly in organized crime. I wouldn't be surprised if Levy is based on a real person. But I would have loved the defense bar (particularly through Baltimore's Public Defender system) to have been treated as sympathetically as drug dealers were. |
In defence of The Wire I saw an interview with its creator once where he was asked about this. Basically "why did you do such a poor job of portraying defence lawyers?" and he copped to it but basically said that The Wire wasn't about that. Basically, that he only had so much space to explore so many things and the show wasn't about defence lawyers so he didn't really do a good job with them.
It would have been cool if he did but at least he admits he didn't because that wasn't his focus.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Ryu Murdock
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Cainta Rizal, Philippines
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I feel bad that there was no mention of Foggy, but feel good there was no mention of McDuffie.
Can we get Echo back from the dead?
Or maybe since she is in season 2 of the show...Elektra on Daredevil?
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"I'm only a DEVIL to those who are demonic." |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryu Murdock wrote: | I feel bad that there was no mention of Foggy, but feel good there was no mention of McDuffie.
Can we get Echo back from the dead?
Or maybe since she is in season 2 of the show...Elektra on Daredevil? |
Echo died?
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Ryu Murdock
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Cainta Rizal, Philippines
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Echo died? |
Yep. She died in Moon Knight. Stupid scene, by the way. Waste of an awesome character if she doesn't get revived soon.
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"I'm only a DEVIL to those who are demonic." |
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Kuljit Mithra
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1530
Location: Canada
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Defence lawyers are more moral than prosecutors. |
Hey, I don't hate Prosecutors. Some of my best friends are prosecutors (OK, no they're not, but I am facebook friends with at least one and I get along with most of them).
Excellent post, btw (most of which I cut out, so I hope others read it).
| Quote: |
That said, I doubt Soule is going to present that kind of reality in the comic. It'll all be Law & Order stuff where all the criminals are truly evil and dangerous and everything is presented in a theoretical way - i.e. Matt is just trying to hold the guilty to account. Far from bringing his real world experience as a lawyer to bare, I assume it'll just be surface level "criminals are baddies!" stuff. Which is fine. I guess. But boring a bit. |
That's honestly a bit of what I'm afraid of. Then again, comics aren't always the best place for this nuance (Daredevil has had serious problems with this in the past). So I'll go with this approach: If they go with the simplistic Law and Order version, that's fine, as long as it isn't a permanent change.
| Quote: | | The other thing is that, as someone mentioned, if Matt starts doing Daredevily stuff to assist with his prosecution cases there is a massive, massive issue. The State, quite properly, is held to a higher account. At least in Canada the prosecution has to share all of its evidence and investigation with the defence. Therefore, in theory, if Matt went out and did some DD investigation he'd have to share the results with the defence lawyers or it would be a miscarriage of justice. Again, I doubt Soule would get that detailed but still. |
That sounds nice. I wish the United States had that. That being said, they do have to share all exculpatory evidence with the defense (anything that's favorable to the defendant), which could be quite broad when Daredevil is involved. New York seems to require: Prior statements of the accused, the accused's criminal record, any recordings, videos, photographs, etc. Prior statements of witnesses must be turned over once those witnesses testify (so they can be cross-examined).
| Quote: | | Finally, one of the reasons I became a defence lawyer was because of Daredevil (kinda). Now what am I supposed to do? |
Just keep fighting the good fight. He'll leave the dark side eventually (I almost feel compelled to point out that he's wearing his Shadowland costume now that he's a prosecutor, so he's probably just possessed by the Beast again).
| james castle wrote: |
In defence of The Wire I saw an interview with its creator once where he was asked about this. Basically "why did you do such a poor job of portraying defence lawyers?" and he copped to it but basically said that The Wire wasn't about that. Basically, that he only had so much space to explore so many things and the show wasn't about defence lawyers so he didn't really do a good job with them.
It would have been cool if he did but at least he admits he didn't because that wasn't his focus. |
Yeah, but he had a season focusing on the Baltimore Sun, why not defense attorneys? OK, I'm not really serious. Maybe season 4 with some juvenile court defense attorneys fighting for the kids. Really, it's a shame the show wasn't more popular when it was on - maybe they could have done it in season 6. It also would have worked because they could have portrayed McNulty's police antics less sympathetically.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!
I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | | I never said defense attorneys were more moral than prosecutors, btw (or even suggested it). |
Sorry I didn't mean to suggest you stated that opinion, I was just trying to make a general point about prosecutors and defense attorneys, where one can point to good and bad examples of lawyers from both sides.
If Matt maintains his principals and ethics, surely he could still serve justice in a different role then his traditional one. Maybe putting him in a DA office gives him different moral dilemmas to deal with.
| james castle wrote: | Defence lawyers are more moral than prosecutors.
Hahaha. Just kidding (but not really). At the end of the day it's an incredibly complex issue (kinda). At the very least it's a very difficult issue because there's a pretty massive gap between the theory and the reality of it. It's funny that someone mentioned Law & Order presenting prosecutors in a heroic light because I used to looooooove Law & Order as a kid. I thought Stone and McCoy were the greatest. In fact, when I went to law school I wanted desperately to be a Crown (Canadian prosecutor) so I could "seek justice" and "fight the good fight". Then someone took me to criminal court for the first time and things started to blur.
I think it's very nice to think of DA's and Crowns keeping rapist and murderers off the street. That all sounds very good but the reality is that the vast majority of accused people are poor people (and poor minorities at that) charged with relatively small stuff. The day in, day out of criminal courts, at a certain level of abstraction, is privileged (usually white) people working to put poor (usually minority) people in jail. So it's kinda gross.
That said, I doubt Soule is going to present that kind of reality in the comic. It'll all be Law & Order stuff where all the criminals are truly evil and dangerous and everything is presented in a theoretical way - i.e. Matt is just trying to hold the guilty to account. Far from bringing his real world experience as a lawyer to bare, I assume it'll just be surface level "criminals are baddies!" stuff. Which is fine. I guess. But boring a bit.
The other thing is that, as someone mentioned, if Matt starts doing Daredevily stuff to assist with his prosecution cases there is a massive, massive issue. The State, quite properly, is held to a higher account. At least in Canada the prosecution has to share all of its evidence and investigation with the defence. Therefore, in theory, if Matt went out and did some DD investigation he'd have to share the results with the defence lawyers or it would be a miscarriage of justice. Again, I doubt Soule would get that detailed but still.
Finally, one of the reasons I became a defence lawyer was because of Daredevil (kinda). Now what am I supposed to do? |
To be fair Daredevil has never been 100% realistic, I doubt in real life someone like Bullseye would be able to escape prison at will and go on killing sprees, without State taking special measures to stop that. Comic book prisons are way too easy to escape from, compared to real world prisons. Plus in the DD universe, criminals are baddies ideas seems very prominent, many DD villains come across as hardcore psychopaths. How many sympathetic villains does DD have that justify his idealism about reforming them, a few, but not many. I think the DD villains who are not irredeemably evil need more developed characterization to justify Matt's idealism about criminal reform, otherwise it seems like Matt is just seeing things that don't exist in the criminals he fights.
So clearly in this fictional world DD exists in, Matt putting some of the psychopaths he fights behind bars seems like the right move.
However, I think Matt's new job can lead to interesting moral dilemmas. What would Matt do if the DA's office was railroading someone because they happen to poor and a minority, how would Matt deal with that? Maybe putting Matt out of his moral comfort zone would be interesting. I don't know if they would go there, rather then making every criminal Matt prosecutes an evil psychopath but it could be interesting if they did. Put Matt is a situation where there are no easy moral victories.
Personally I would want to see how this idea is executed, before judging it.
Anyway moving on to other things, it seems like Soule is trying to introduce new villains and supporting cast members to DD. I do wonder how often writers after Miller and Nocenti have managed to introduce villains and supporting cast members that don't fall by the wayside when the next writer takes over. Will any writer after Waid use McDuffie or Ikari again in the future? I wonder how long this new partner will stick around, after Soule leaves the title. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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On a positive note I agree that new ideas are good so I'm excited to see a new take on the character.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Dragonbat
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 15 Jan 2014
Posts: 144
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | “Other Assistant DAs, the actual Manhattan DA—a fellow nicknamed the Hawk who’s very loosely based on the legendary Robert Morgenthau—a paralegal named Ellen King, and more,” the writer highlights. “Foggy Nelson’s still a part of the story, and other familiar faces will pop up from time to time as well.” |
 Okay. Color me reassured! |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Well, there goes all the sadness and respect about people fighting against cancer blah, blah, blah. A good reset of the universe and they're like new. |
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