Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Is the Waid run any good for Bendis/Brubaker fans?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The comics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Joslyn
Flying Blind


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:32 pm    Post subject: Is the Waid run any good for Bendis/Brubaker fans? Reply with quote

To be fair that's the reason I joined the forum. I'm reading a lot of comments of you guys and it's either you hate it or you love it.
I am a huge fan of the Bendis and Brubaker run. I love their dialogues, I love the dark and gritty setting, I love what they put Matt through, I love the art of Maleev and Lark. I don't have a negative thing about it. The only thing I can say is when Bendis/Maleev left nothing changed much which Brubaker/Lark stepping in. When I reread the tpb's I allways stop reading for a while with Bendis ending and Brubakers first story.
Since I read Powers, Gotham Central, Jinx, Criminal, it's easy to see why I like volume 2 of Daredevil so much.
Now I'm reading the Diggle stories and I'm starting to wonder if I should continue and start collecting the Waid tpb's and continue to read Matts/DDs evolving character. But the art doesn't appeal to me. And reading some of you guys comments about "cartoony villians" (Stiltman, the Spot) I don't get excited either. But then again Matt moving to San Fransisco, coming-out (confessing?) being Daredevil and the return of the Owl does sound intriging to me.
Also the retrospective http://them0vieblog.com/2014/04/24/mark-waid-chris-samnee-paolo-rivera-et-als-run-on-daredevil-vol-3-reviewretrospective/ sounds very positive and promising.

Can any of you give a good comparison between the Bendis/Brubaker runs and the Waid run other than "I hate Waid and I love Bendis" (or the other way around). Should I buy Waid tpb#1 and see if I like it enough to continue or is Waid tpb#1 not a good indication of what he is doing with the Daredevil character? Or is volume 2 together with End of days just a solid run with a satisfiying ending?

thanks DD fans
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dimetre
Parts of a Hole


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1162
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you should at least get the first trade. I actually prefer Paolo Rivera's art to Chris Samnee's, and I think Rivera gave the best visual depiction of Daredevil's radar in the character's history.

The tone is very different from Volume 2, but I think that's an understandable reaction to the disaster that was Shadowland. I'll tell you that I didn't enjoy Bendis' run, but I enjoyed Brubaker's. I personally prefer Waid's Volume 3 work over both of their Daredevil work. Ed Brubaker is one of my favourite writers ever, but I don't think his best work is Daredevil by a long shot.

What I think I enjoy about Waid's Volume 3 work is the characterization of Matt Murdock. He actually lives up to the Daredevil name. He is more proactive than he was throughout all of Volume 2. He doesn't wait for things to get worse and worse, he goes out and risks his life to cut off the villain before they can get the advantage. He is more impetuous than he's been in a long time, and it's a lot of fun.

Another thing I liked about Volume 3 is that Waid used villains that posed interesting challenges to Daredevil's powers and skills. I find it surprising that this is the first time Daredevil faced Klaw. Why is that? Of course Klaw is going to debilitate Matt, but in order for Matt to escape he has to be extra heroic. That's just going to be a good story. Ikari is an amazing new villain created by Waid and Samnee. The story with Moleman was very well told. And I love the story where Daredevil is taken to Latveria. I think that was my favourite story in Volume 3.

Many people here have used the descriptor "happy-go-lucky" to describe the Waid era, and I'm not going to be the first person to call that inaccurate. The very first issue has Matt acknowledging his refusal to deal with the demons lurking from Volume 2. Throughout Volume 3 and 4, those demons continue to rear their heads. There are also stories with corpses, racism, other dark matter. Those who describe the Waid era as "happy-go-lucky" are focusing on the colour palette and not the content.

So, I would recommend reading the first trade and making up your own mind, as opposed to writing off years of Waid's Daredevil work without giving it a chance. You may be pleasantly surprised, or you may hate it. Personally, it proved to me that Daredevil doesn't always have to be depicted in the noir and gritty style that dominated Volume 2.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Murdock
Lowlife


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Moleman story and the Dr. Doom story are among my favorites. They're darker stories mixed with lightness. But I don't mind the lightness. I say this as someone who loved Brubaker's run and liked Bendis's. Then again, my favorite writer is Miller, who wasn't afraid to throw a light story in with the dark (I guess they're similar in that Miller wasn't as dark as his reputation and Waid isn't as light).

So I'll echo the sentiment of reading the first collected volume (assuming we're talking 1-10, not 1-6. I thought the first few issues, while fun, didn't quite have the substance that gets quickly added).
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom


Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're a hardcore fan of Bendis and Brubaker you probably won't like Waid's run.Even when the series's so-called dark stories happen it's ruined by Samnee's cartooney art.Also,Waid is very overhyped in my opinion.Bottom line is,if you're looking for a Netflix tone then Waid's run probably won't work for you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayle88
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bendis' run is one of my favourite runs of any character. I'm also a big Brubaker fan and really liked his run. I liked the start of Waid's run, my enjoyment lowered as the run went on but I still liked it by the time Waid's first volume was wrapped up.

If you go in to it knowing it isn't similar in tone then you can have an open mind and find other reasons to enjoy it.

I'm not a fan of Waid and also don't see what a lot of others rave about with any of his work but the start of his Daredevil run is worth a shot and then you'll find out if there is anything he brings to the character that you do enjoy. Just don't expect it to be the same things that you love about the other two.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Murdock
Lowlife


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where were you Bendis fans back in June when we did Underboss for the Book Club?
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom


Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can best answer your query from my own experience with Bendis' run.

Bendis' run is still beloved, oft mentioned as being amongst the best alongside Miller. I get that but from my own personal taste, after reading several select issues of his run, I've found that I didn't like it, from his tone to his pacing to his dialogue and so on, his work didn't appeal to me so I haven't read anymore of it and likely never will.

That being said, I did at least try his work. So yes, you owe to it yourself to try Waid's run and decide for yourself if the tone and elements you find within are something that you can enjoy and thus wish to continue to read.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
Where were you Bendis fans back in June when we did Underboss for the Book Club?


I assume they were hiding. While it's very easy to just declare yourself a Bendis fan and talk about how you like his tone it's very difficult to actually defend his work in any detailed way. Mostly because the man is all tone no plot/substance.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Joslyn
Flying Blind


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkdevil wrote:
That being said, I did at least try his work. So yes, you owe to it yourself to try Waid's run and decide for yourself if the tone and elements you find within are something that you can enjoy and thus wish to continue to read.


Fair enough. I'm gonna give Waid a try with the first tpb. Should I read Reborn first?

james castle wrote:
Mike Murdock wrote:
Where were you Bendis fans back in June when we did Underboss for the Book Club?


I assume they were hiding. While it's very easy to just declare yourself a Bendis fan and talk about how you like his tone it's very difficult to actually defend his work in any detailed way. Mostly because the man is all tone no plot/substance.


Haha Sorry I wasn't around back then. I would have defend Bendis with teeth and nails. Very Happy
I read Bendis a lot. I read Fire, Goldfish, Jinx and Torso before reading the entire Miller DD run. I became a "fan" with Bendis work on Sam & Twitch which lead me to Dardevil.
IMO Bendis is the Tarantino of comics (you can start your ranting Razz ). Both are great in nonsense dialogue without anything happening. And I really like the natural flow of those conversations in the books. I think Daredevil isn't even the best (or worst) example of that. If you read Powers it is easy to see that the character Deena Pilgrim IS Bendis!
Another strong point of the Bendis runs is Maleevs art. While Bendis' script was stonger in his first half of his run (IMO) Maleevs art keeps getting better and better. For me Scarlett is his best work yet.

OK I'll stop yapping about Bendis here and jump over to the bookclub topic to spread my Bendis love. And I'll be buying the first (2) Waid tpb's in the near future.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayle88
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
Mike Murdock wrote:
Where were you Bendis fans back in June when we did Underboss for the Book Club?


I assume they were hiding. While it's very easy to just declare yourself a Bendis fan and talk about how you like his tone it's very difficult to actually defend his work in any detailed way. Mostly because the man is all tone no plot/substance.


I hadn't really looked at any of the book club threads and when I did I mentioned why I liked it.

I read his run in one go with the ultimate collections and it's a long but great story. DD standing out on the lamppost above the press with his mask off, fighting off the assassins, hunting down The Owl, Stilt Man throwing his stuff down on Matt's desk, the Kingpin fight, Matt against the Yakuza, the scene in the park, Matt coming back in to the room after Bullseye tries to get Milla, Matt being in the counselling session for people affected by Daredevil the whole time, Kingpin manipulating everyone at the end of the run. Plus lots of other cool small stuff in between. The star of the run is Maleev, the whole thing looks incredible.

I don't need everything to be wham, bam in my face every issue. I like reading great dialogue, I don't mind stories taking their time. I also don't want every story I read to be like that. I even said in the other thread I understand how reading Bendis' run in monthly waits could be a pain but that isn't how I experienced it.

More importantly, because you can't find things to enjoy about something doesn't mean others who do must be full of **** and hide when asked to give their opinion just because you disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple things:

First, you can retroactively jump into the Bendis thread and share your thoughts if you feel like it. The cool thing about the book club (from my perspective) is that it give people an opportunity to take a slow, careful look at stuff. If you actually dissect Under Boss you'll see that nothing really happens in it. It's told out of sequence so that it seems cool or complex but it's just a very boring story told in a "wacky" way.

Second, "great dialogue" is usually the last desperate compliment for bad writing. Look, I don't even think Bendis' dialogue is that great considering that every character has the same tone and are therefore indistinguishable but even if it is great dialogue - that's the basis of writing. Not the end of it. It's easy to just write "cool" dialogue if that's all you want to do. The trick to writing is to have good dialogue that lives within the restraints of the characters (either established or otherwise) that serves to push the plot forward. Writers like Peter David or Mike Carey or Joss Weddon all have peppy dialogue but they also have complex, interconnecting plots and characters that are identifiable from the dialogue alonte. That's tough. Simply writing "cool" dialogue while ignoring both characterization and plot is not.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dayle88
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll throw my Elmore Leonard and George V Higgins books away then.

You picked out one point I made out of many for why I like the run.

You don't have to like it but that doesn't mean every one else is just trying to fit in to some kind of popular opinion or trend because they do like it or that they don't understand what good writing is because you don't appreciate it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayle88 wrote:
I'll throw my Elmore Leonard and George V Higgins books away then.

You picked out one point I made out of many for why I like the run.

You don't have to like it but that doesn't mean every one else is just trying to fit in to some kind of popular opinion or trend because they do like it or that they don't understand what good writing is because you don't appreciate it.


I never said anyone was trying to fit in or doesn't understamd good writing. If you like Bendis you like Bendis. That's fine. He's just a really bad writer.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
RGdesigner
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 121
Location: Tennessee

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the original question of the thread.
I haven't been Mark Waid's biggest fan lately, but his Volume 3 is definitely worth checking out and I would even recommend reading Volume 4 and seeing for yourself if you enjoy it.

Its a definite change in the style of storytelling. Matt is much more proactive under Waid's pen. Its a mixture of tone though, neither all dark nor all light, and it definitely tries to explore some serious issues throughout.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kentuckydevil
Flying Blind


Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I loved Bendis' run. Awesome storytelling...almost as good as miller but no quite there..

ky
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The comics All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group