Daredevil Message Board

theunrealstudios

While people are still talking about this what do you guys think the "shoulda, coulda" been for Shadowland? Obviously people are unsatisfied with the end and people are saying it was a horrible arc but was that because of the set up concept (Matt owning a ninja clan), the excecution of story (beast, bullseye, kingpin, marvel heroes etc) or both? personally had it been grounded in realism (no Beast or magic, a gothic architecture church instead of a Japanese temple, etc) and not been an event and focused on Matt i would have been happy. Thoughts?

james castle · Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject:

Matt running the Hand was a really good idea but was completely ruined virtually right away. Making the Hand still evil and trying to trick Matt or whatever was just about the most boring take on the situation that could have been done.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

baker · Flying Blind Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 43

Shadowland was just a plain bad idea. Build a castle in hells kitchen in three months where we can patrol the streets and imprison criminals? yeesh.

The idea that Shadowland is based on, Matt getting possessed by the Beast, could have actually been good. But there was barely any background, which left the premise with no substance or impact. If Diggle would have tied it into Elektra: Assassin (while writing like he did in his DC/Vertigo days) we would have gotten something amazing. Instead he trashed The Beast (and for that matter, the Hand) that Frank Miller created.

When I read issue 501, where Matt "kills" Master Izo, I was soooooo excited. (Despite the Hand having those stupid devil-horns) I thought wow, they are actually playing Matt's takeover of the Hand as it should be. From that point, they could have played it to where he really does do good works with the Hand under his control, or (under the right pen) he could slowly become a villain, as the new status-quo. With no BS. Instead we got the fiasco we got.

Taskmaster · Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject:

Yes. Shadowland was a cool concept, inflated hideously and made into a huge crossover event.

The lead-up to Shadowland was incredible!!!
I will never again read the Shadowland books.
The DD books was a cool way of telling the story though. I like those. And it makes sense without Shadowland 1-4, though the final issue is a big gap -- you need to put Shadowland 5 in there unfortunately.

Wheelie · Flying Blind Joined: 10 Feb 2011 Posts: 37

It was definitely poorly executed in that there was no execution! All Diggle's run accomplished was to negate the end of Brubaker's run in which the Hand chose Matt over Kingpin to lead them. It was like Diggle disagreed with that decision and worked to reverse it.

Diggle should've had a memorable 30 issue or so run of Matt leading the Hand and molding them in his image to do good. Issues where he trains them to patrol Hell's Kitchen or Manhattan at large and to stop crime without using deadly force (some levity could have been introduced in what has been a stern book for awhile now, with the DD-teaching-Hand scenario). Issues where a ninja or two get out of line and kills someone and how DD deals with it both internally and to outsiders. Issues where his leadership is threatened by other masters and how he deals with that. I'm sure there are countless other much better storylines that could've been introduced as well.

Instead, DD's leadership of the Hand was abruptly canceled with that deus crap machina of a Beast copout. And now we get to read what I'm sure will be Diggle's unoriginal, poopy version of Born Again before returning Matt to HK.

As a big Kingpin fan myself, I AM excited to see what Fisk will do with the Hand in the future, but my gosh, why couldn't Marvel have allowed Matt to play with that toy for a bit? Anyway, hopefully a talented writer will take over DD in the fall after he returns to HK and has to deal with Kingpin in control of the Hand.

BTW, did anyone notice that the Fisk Tower was destroyed over in Amazing Spider-Man (something that maybe should've been properly allowed to happen in DD's book)? Looks like KP will be situated in that monstrosity called Shadowland for awhile.

WithoutFear86 · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:27 pm Post subject:

james castle · Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject:

And it's worse than I thought. I was trade waiting and am now half way through Shadowland (3 issues of the mini and 3 issues of the DD arc). So far, so "wtf?". My initial reactions have been:

1. Why is the castle called Shadowland and why does everyone keep referring to it as such? And not just the characters who migh sensibly know what it's called but everyone like Foggy, etc. Did Matt really put out a press release announcing the cheesy name for his castle? Why did he name his castle in the first place?

2. Why is Kingpin and idiot? One of my smaller gripes with Guardian Devil is the scene where Kingpin says "well played" or something when reading about Bullseye killing Karen. What bugs me about the scene is that Bullseye killed Karen basically by accident. She shows up and he kills her. It wasn't part of any plan. But Kingpin is impressed because he thinks it was planned. So that shot is actually of Kingpin being mistaken! It's a minor thing but it shows how out of touch Smith was with his own plot. A similar moment happens in Shadowland when Kingpin announces that he "knew" Murdock would go too far. My sense is that he doesn't "know" that the Beast has taken control of Matt so once again this is him just being wrong. What's the point?

3. As soon as "The Beast" shows up in an actual illustration a whole lot of the scary mystery behind him/it is gone.

4. Maybe I missed something but didn't The Hand think Matt killed Izo? If that's right why are they so happy when he kills Bullseye? Why is that "the final step"? If the final step is Matt killing someone shouldn't they have been like "why isn't the Beast Beasting it up?" after he killed Izo? Isn't killing a good guy like Izo worse than killing Bullseye?

Other than that my impression of the series so far is that it's 90% people standing around talking about Shadowland and how bad Matt's decisions are. Ug.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

dsugar · Flying Blind Joined: 10 Jun 2011 Posts: 39

Shadowland could have been great. They built the story up well leading to it but it seemed that they rushed to get out of it. I don't think there was enough battle scenes with other villains and heroes. I thought at one point the Avengers would step in but that never happend. Finally you get to see Daredevil not be a victim and beat up a few. It was interesting to see him lead the Hand and killing bullseye but it just needed a better story. With the Beast taking him over and in control of The Hand he could have taken on other villains that normally they wouldn't put him up against. He's one of the best fighters and with that additional power and The Hand (unstoppable) they could have done so much more. This should have lasted much longer.

"The Birth of the Marvel Universe's Greatest Villain"....and they ruined their chance of it being such a great story.

Joslyn · Flying Blind Joined: 15 Sep 2015 Posts: 5

Sorry for bumping this topic. That's what you get with new guys coming in.

I just finished reading Diggles run on DD. I liked where Brubaker left DD for Diggle to take over.
And I enjoyed the idea of what Diggle was planning to do with DD. I read a lot of you guys comments here about Shadowland being a good concept badly executed. And I can see way you are saying that. After reading the Diggle interview in the DD Shadowland tpb you get the sense that Diggle knew what a great concept he had his hands on but because of the state the Marvel Universe was in (Dark Reign) is had te be executed with haste. (reading DD seems to be in that Dark Reign era, I don't know if Dark Avengers were being published in the same time but the probably did because of the List: Daredevil)

Reading that interview Diggle explains he wants to follow Brubaker and take Daredevil in a further darker place (Daredevil leads the Hand), Marvel asks Diggle to bring Daredevil into the Marvel Universe (the List and Bullseye blowing up that city block) and making an event with street level heros (Shadowland). That all sounds cool but I guess Diggle only gets a year to do that.
So I am with you it all is rushed, characters don't develop or change overnight.

Onto the story. There are some real good things in there I like and would like to see how it would play out. Daredevil killing Bullseye is one of those. Sure I understand why most of us would be disgusted by the fact our hero kills of the badguy. That should not happen. But again how many times has crossed our minds "Kill Bullseye, it would save you a ton of trouble" (same goes for Batman killing the Joker, [spoiler]which Miller eventually did[/spoiler]). I understand DD is a hero for NOT doing it but if he gets pushed to far (killing 107 people could do that) he could kill Bullseye. This could lead into DD betraying himself and going from his good intentions, using the Hand for good, to turning into the badguy leading the Hand the wrong way. This could be woven into stories with the Beast or the streetlevel superheros making appearances. Over a 2 or 3 year period this would be a good read.

But to many things don't make sense. Building a castle in 3 months, everything referring to it as Shadowland without knowing why, Izos murder being fake and going unnoticed, Izo and Elektra jumping to and back from Japan in an instant and that visit being worthless. There is no gradual growth of DD into the Beast. Suddenly he is it. And how did White Tiger get possesed?

It reminds my a lot of Nolans The Dark Knight Rises movie. How did Bruce Wayne get from the pit to Gotham that fast and why the cops being trapped for 3 months don't have beards?

So I like to idea of Diggles run. I like where Murduck is left in the end. That leaves a good jump point for a new creative team. Is wish Diggle could have taken 3 years to tell his story. It would have made much more sense.

So now I have to choose. End my Daredevil reading with End of Days or read Daredevil Reborn and continue with the new creative team for volume 5?

Mike Murdock · Golden Age Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Posts: 1750

^ I haven't read End of Days, although I haven't heard great things. My suggestion is do the latter. Read Reborn (it's an alright story) and then check out Waid. If you're tentative, you can always subscribe to Marvel Unlimited and read an unlimited amount for $10.

I know this is a four year old thread, but I'll chime in too:

I don't know about great concept. That's pushing it. However, it had potential to at least be a fun story until it went off the rails. There are two problems I saw (probably interrelated). One, it was rushed. The stories before weren't bad, but they were rushing headlong into Shadowland. The other problem is it quickly lost subtlety. Miller did a good job of showing Elektra slowly corrupted by the Hand. Diggle started off doing the same and then went for blatant possession. Now I have no problem with Matt being ultimately possessed, but I do have a problem with how blatant it was.

Aside from that, not a whole lot really happens in the main story. It's basically evil Daredevil and heroes butt heads a couple of times. If there was more to it than that, I've clearly forgotten it. The spinoffs weren't bad. Daredevil did a good job focusing on the other characters and keeping things grounded (sort of how Bucky and Sharon were the comic focus on Captain America during Civil War). Blood on the Streets was pretty good (although apparently it ruined a character I never knew existed). The Elektra one-shot was great and the Ghost Rider one was good too. One thing I hate, though, are tie-ins that tease significant plot-relevance and then never follow through on it. Moon Knight was an interesting story, for example, but it was ultimately a red herring. The Spider-Man story was better because it was more honest - it just used the backdrop as a setting. Although it was actually a spinoff of Blood on the Streets more than anything else.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

The Overlord · Paradiso Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 1095

james castle · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:41 pm Post subject:

Mike Murdock · Golden Age Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Posts: 1750

The Overlord · Paradiso Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 1095

DesignDevil · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:11 pm Post subject:

Matt Murdock becoming the leader of the Hand was one of the best story ideas anyone had ever come up with for the character. Brubaker executed it masterfully. Nothing but potential. Years worth of stories could have been explored from this.

Diggle I thought took the ball and ran with with it fine right up to the actual Shadowland story. Literally from one issue to the next Matt went from playing this grand chess game and not so subtle hints that he was being influenced to a full blown cartoon villain. it was like we skipped a year of issues.

Suddenly all his friends, most of whom have had their turns being mind controlled, were like "Well we gotta kill him." But then they all just leave Kingpin in charge of a giant ninja fortress in the middle of NY.

The actual Daredevil issues dealing with Foggy, Dakota, and Becky were solid, they just made no sense unless you read Shadowland.

The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.