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Does Daredevil kill?
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Does Daredevil kill? Reply with quote

It seems that the final issue of "Born Again" opened up a can of worms in the Book Club. With Daredevil exploding the helicopter with the pilot inside, it seems that some readers take that as a signal that Daredevil is open to playing executioner.

As I said in my review, I am able to rationalize Daredevil's choice to do what he did. And it seems that every other review recognizes his regret in having to do what he did. The words, "Forgive me," are direct evidence that he would never normally choose to take another life.

Friends of mine have suggested he could have incapacitated the pilot with a well-timed billy club toss to the head and swung him to safety away from the fallen copter, and I have to admit, those friends have a point. Another reviewer in the Book Club said it was too late for that. I'm not so sure about that.

Still, I can rationalize the choice Frank Miller made as storyteller. This is not a choice Daredevil is comfortable making.

The other instance people often use to suggested Daredevil is okay with killing is from #181 (the single greatest issue of a comic in history, but I digress...). Daredevil and Bullseye are facing off while standing on the same power line high above the street. Daredevil jumps up and lands, shaking the wire and causing Bullseye to lose his footing. Bullseye doesn't plummet to the street, but instead is caught by Daredevil who dangles from the wire. As you can see, his first instinct is to save the killer. Bullseye finds this unacceptable, and pulls out one of Elektra's sai to stab our hero. Daredevil releases his grip, and Bullseye falls to the street, while Daredevil says, "You'll kill no one, ever again."

We all know Daredevil hates Bullseye, and the feeling is mutual. As I said, Daredevil's first instinct was to preserve life, no matter how insidious. Bullseye wouldn't allow this, and the way I see it, Daredevil had then only two choices. He could have kept his grip on Bullseye and allowed himself to be killed, resulting in both his and Bullseye's deaths, or to do what he eventually did. In this case, I see the latter choice as completely understandable and justifiable. It does not mean that Daredevil is now open to killing. And, as we all know, that fall wasn't fatal.

The third instance in comics where Daredevil has killed is garbage in my opinion. In Shadowland #1, Daredevil, now the leader of The Hand, hunts down Bullseye for a mass murder. In this fight, Daredevil is ruthless. He breaks both of Bullseye's arms and has him completely incapacitated. But wait, he's not done. He grabs a sai, and in a splash page echoing the panel from #181 (the single greatest issue of a comic yada yada...), he thrusts it through Bullseye's abdomen.

And in #512 (my nominee for worst issue of Daredevil ever...) it was made crystal clear that he was not possessed by The Hand or Snakeroot when he did that. That was a choice he made.

And some people on this board seem fine with that. I am not.

I don't see how this last instance is justifiable. Matt Murdock believes first and foremost in the justice system. That means he believes in due process. He believes that every person facing a charge of no matter what deserves their day in court. That's what the two issues from Miller and Janson where Daredevil encounters the Punisher for the first time are all about. In that story Billy wanted to kill Hogman for the death of his sister, and Daredevil pleaded with him to spare the piece of crap's life, saying they would get him on another charge. And he concedes that the system isn't perfect, but that's it's what we have. And that's the Daredevil I love.

I don't see how that Daredevil from Miller and Janson can inhabit the same skin as the Daredevil from #512. If that Daredevil has simply been worn down by Bullseye over the ensuing years, to the point where he would abandon his most intrinsic values, then I find that tragic. And I don't accept it. I still pretend that Shadowland never happened.

(Slightly off topic -- I hope Ron Garney brings back the red suit soon so I don't have these Shadowland flashbacks caused by the current black suit.)

So, in summary, partly because Shadowland never happened ( Twisted Evil ) I think Matt Murdock is still among the noblest people in the Marvel Universe, with an unshakeable set of values and a belief in the judicial system. Therefore, in the course of preventing a crime, he would do what he can to preserve life, no matter's whose life it is. What I will concede is that if he's backed into a corner, he will do what he have to in order to prevent more deaths, and if that means he has to kill the antagonist, that's a regrettable course that he has to follow.
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Daredevil24
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because Daredevil finally gave Bullseye what he deserved after years of letting him go to prison just so he could escape again, and kill again,doesn't mean he's no longer a noble man.The thing I like about Matt Murdock is that he is noble,but he's also human.He doesn't go into fights looking to kill,but if he has to he will.He's not like Batman,had he been in Batman's position I think he would have killed the Joker a long time ago.I thought Diggle could have made the killing of Bullseye a bigger deal,but I wouldn't say he's not the same character Miller wrote based on that.There was also the time where hell killed Mickey's abductor in Man without fear,deflecting a bullet right into his forehead. There was also the time where he killed a man who was part of the Hand.I don't believe he was undead yet at the time either,it was in Chickhester's run.Matt will express regret when he feels the need to kill because he's not a killer by nature but when the time comes to do it he will do.
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Dayle88
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's my one gripe with Batman. I can't remember the scene from Born Again off the top of my head but if the pilot is causing harm to civilians then Batman would not stop him if he couldn't get on board the helicopter. Matt does what is necessary to save innocent people even if that means he has to take on the burden and dread of something he absolutely does not WANT to do but will in extreme cases. Matt has the discipline to not become a serial killer if he causes the death of an evil person. Apparently if Bruce Wayne kills one person he'll go on a fun time murder spree.

Daredevil isn't a killer. Taking an action that kills somebody who leaves a hero no option isn't murder morally in my eyes. What the law thinks should be left out of it when judging a character in this way. Being in a situation like that, having to take on that responsibility to act and go against yourself to save others could be deemed highly heroic in itself.
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Daredevil24
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest Batman's flawed morals made me get behind Jason Todd.Batman villains are probably the most sick and twisted out of both major companies.I think if you're taking the title of guardian of the city,then you owe it to the people to due what is necessary to obtain peace.The Joker cannot be rehabilitated so it is beyond me why he locks him up just for him to escape and kill hundreds more in a matter of weeks with his stupid laughing gas.That's why I prefer Matt,he'll kill,feel guilty,and it's back to business as usual. Daredevil is the protector and the hero that everyone should aspire to be imo.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, the choice to kill has to be an extreme choice. I don't think it's like Batman's one rule where crippling injuries are fine as long as people don't die. I'd argue with Daredevil it's more that he believes in the process. He's not Judge, jury, and executioner. Killing in an extreme set of circumstances where there's no other way (the one time in the Netflix show is another example) is understandable. Those circumstances are fewer and farther between because his skills make it unnecessary, but, when they happen, it's understandable.

With Bullseye's death, I'm OK with it as a story moment. Matt's not a perfect character and I think he regretted his action. It was a perfect storm that led up to it. Matt was under a lot of strain, something extreme had just happened at Bullseye's hands, Bullseye has inflicted great pain on Matt, and, finally, he had lost faith in the justice system because of Norman Osborn's Dark Reign. If one factor had been different, I think the result would have been different. But the story is flawed enough as is that I'm glad they kept this as his choice. I don't think the story works otherwise.
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Darkdevil
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I think the circumstances dictates the response. I don't think Matt will ever kill wantonly. With such a strong belief in the legal system, I don't accept that Matt would ever take the law into his own hands in this most drastic of fashions...unless the circumstances forced him into doing so.

If forced into a corner, with options slim to none, he may be forced into crossing that line, which he has done (more often than not towards saving other lives), with sufficient regret and guilt. Even in that moment in Man Without Fear, he repeatedly pleaded with the assassin who'd kidnapped Mickey to free her because Matt didn't want to be forced to kill him. But the assassin ignored him.

Matt will cross that line but ever so reluctantly.

However, upon further thought, the act in Born Again may contain new meanings. The billy-club suggestion of knocking the pilot out, I can see but I think by that point, it was too little, too late. Nuke had turned Hell's Kitchen into a warzone, wreaking so much destruction that Kingpin could witness the devastation from his skyscraper. Matt could sense the increasing death and maiming of civilians around him so the crisis needed to be resolved imminently. Yet he was outmatched by Nuke, forced into extreme measures to subdue him.

And then there's his helicopter buddy, still firing. Matt did have a choice in this matter for consider the weapon Matt was holding, Nuke's 'Ah-nold' rifle with a mortar/naplam addition.

Now, could Matt have fired the rifle at the copter, damaging it enough to force it to crash? The pilot may have suffered injuries but odds are, he probably would've survived.

Instead, he uses the mortar/napalm addition which I think he did deliberately as a form of retribution and payback against Wilson Fisk.

Lest we forget, Matt has previously fantasized about nearly beating Kingpin to death in order to win back his life. Matt knew that Fisk wanted him dead. Now, Fisk had unleashed his last-ditch gambit to kill him regardless of how many bystanders were caught in the crossfire. In the shot before the helicopter explosion, as he fires, Matt declares, "No more". An open declaration that he will tolerate this level of insanity no longer and what better way to display that than by outright destroying the last vestige of such a horror?

So the line of "Forgive me" could possibly carry an extra meaning. Yes, he feels guilty about killing the pilot but it could also mean that he feels guilty about wanting to do so. Matt had been pushed beyond the brink by Fisk's obsession and the mayhem caused in Hell's Kitchen, his former and new home, was the last absolute straw.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "forgive me" line paralleled later choices by Frank Miller in The Man Without Fear, which was to have lots of death but attempt to paint it as either accidental or something where there is no choice. The struggle in the water is probably the example I can think of the best. It's another one where I thought it seemed justified under the circumstances (particularly for a less-skilled new Daredevil), but certainly was shocking and Miller took pains to show that this wasn't something wanted or desired.
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil24 wrote:
...had he been in Batman's position I think he would have killed the Joker a long time ago.

I absolutely disagree. Daredevil stands, above all, for justice. He believes in due process. He would not play judge, jury and executioner. That's not to say he's naive enough to think that the Joker or Bullseye can be rehabilitated, but he's moral enough to not take the law into his own hands. That's why he's so opposed to the Punisher. He believes in the legal system and how the role it plays in preventing anarchy.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel there are two questions here, does DD kill and should DD kill?

DD has killed, he killed that pilot in Born Again, he killed Larks in Man Without Fear and he killed Bullseye in Shadowland. I will agree with the general idea of this thread that DD can and will only kill as an absolute last resort, kinda like Captain America has in the past (he once killed a terrorist shooting into a crowd

However I will say one thing, Bullseye is such in an irredeemable fiend, I think a lot of people would agree with Matt killing him on a gut level, even if that was not the legal and ethical thing to do.

A lot of people have compared DD to Punisher, but I think sometimes people here dismiss why Punisher is considered a compelling character in his own right, rather then just interesting foil for DD, I think Garth Ennis is a way better Punisher writer then Frank Miller.

I don't know if anyone here has read Punisher Max, but there were was pretty dark issues in that series. There was one story, with a group of human traffickers, who kidnapped women from Eastern Europe, raped them to break their will and force them into prostitution. The leader of the group is a former war criminal who deals with his rivals by violently massacring them and his other associates are not much better. The slavers bribed the cops to be their personal minions and used them to keep Punisher from distrusting their operations. Too often writers write Punisher as a cartoon character, an idiot who kills purse snatchers, but good writers put Punisher against criminals who really disgust the reader, so you disagree with Punisher on a moral and intellectual level and still root from him on a gut level.

I feel like some villains are so vile, that the readers do want to say them get a harsher punishment then a slap on the wrist every couple of weeks, which is what happens with Joker and Bullseye.
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LightningandIce
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that Matt killing extreme violent criminals on a couple occasions in order to save the lives of innocents makes him comparable to the Punisher or that his morals are in question. It's no different from a run-of-the-mill police officer killing somebody in a shootout. It's a terrible thing but sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. I don't think that makes somebody evil.
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Daredevil24
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Daredevil24 wrote:
...had he been in Batman's position I think he would have killed the Joker a long time ago.

I absolutely disagree. Daredevil stands, above all, for justice. He believes in due process. He would not play judge, jury and executioner. That's not to say he's naive enough to think that the Joker or Bullseye can be rehabilitated, but he's moral enough to not take the law into his own hands. That's why he's so opposed to the Punisher. He believes in the legal system and how the role it plays in preventing anarchy.
Do you know how many people the Joker's killed?Bullsye's killed two of his lovers and blew up a building in his city killing 219 people.The Joker' viciously killed a teenage sidekick,took nudes pictures of the first Batgirl after crippling her,sent them to her father whose one of the most respected citizens of Gotham and has killed probably over a thousand different people.But you some how think Matt is too righteous to kill somebody like that?Please.The Joker is ten times worse than Bullseye.Matt isn't a killer,but he'd be willing to cross the line and kill someone as evil as the Joker to save hundres of lives and thousands in collateral damage.The Joker is worse than Fisk and Bullseye put to together.And Matt has attempted to murder both Fisk and Bulleye, and has also killed men far less evil than them.I think most people would agree that the Joker would have forced Matt to kill him.Matt has faith in the legal system but there is only so much much you can let the law handle.Killing one man doesn't mean he's gonna act as judge,jury and executioner all the time.So,while I respect your view,I'll disagree with you.
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Daredevil24
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Overlord wrote:
I feel there are two questions here, does DD kill and should DD kill?

DD has killed, he killed that pilot in Born Again, he killed Larks in Man Without Fear and he killed Bullseye in Shadowland. I will agree with the general idea of this thread that DD can and will only kill as an absolute last resort, kinda like Captain America has in the past (he once killed a terrorist shooting into a crowd

However I will say one thing, Bullseye is such in an irredeemable fiend, I think a lot of people would agree with Matt killing him on a gut level, even if that was not the legal and ethical thing to do.

A lot of people have compared DD to Punisher, but I think sometimes people here dismiss why Punisher is considered a compelling character in his own right, rather then just interesting foil for DD, I think Garth Ennis is a way better Punisher writer then Frank Miller.

I don't know if anyone here has read Punisher Max, but there were was pretty dark issues in that series. There was one story, with a group of human traffickers, who kidnapped women from Eastern Europe, raped them to break their will and force them into prostitution. The leader of the group is a former war criminal who deals with his rivals by violently massacring them and his other associates are not much better. The slavers bribed the cops to be their personal minions and used them to keep Punisher from distrusting their operations. Too often writers write Punisher as a cartoon character, an idiot who kills purse snatchers, but good writers put Punisher against criminals who really disgust the reader, so you disagree with Punisher on a moral and intellectual level and still root from him on a gut level.

I feel like some villains are so vile, that the readers do want to say them get a harsher punishment then a slap on the wrist every couple of weeks, which is what happens with Joker and Bullseye.
That was a very good Punisher story.I hated those villains with a passion.
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil24 wrote:
Matt isn't a killer,but he'd be willing to cross the line and kill someone as evil as the Joker to save hundres of lives and thousands in collateral damage.

And I'm saying that because of his principles and his belief in due process and the judicial system, he's unwilling to cross that line. Of course a figure like the Joker or Bullseye is abhorrent, but I think part of his nobility is the strength of his principles. How hard he holds on to him is the true test of his character.
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DesignDevil
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does Daredevil kill? Only in extreme cases.

Should Daredevil kill. Yes, if there is no other choice.

Has Daredevil killed? A few times, most of which were absolutely justified. Bullseye being the exception, because he was beaten and not a threat. There have been a few times where Matt would've been justified in killing Bullseye but didn't because the writer didn't want him to or couldn't.

Would Murdock kill the Joker? If Joker had just killed a bunch of people but was beaten? No. If Joker was about to kill an innocent and Daredevil could only prevent it by killing Joker? I would hope the answer would be yes.

I'll repeat myself from the Born Again discussion. There is an enormous gulf, bigger than the Grand Canyon, between being a saint who won't kill anyone ever and being the Punisher who kills wantonly and eagerly. We should realize sometimes bad guys need to be put down and the only real reason heroes don't kill is because of the nature of serialized storytelling that has no definite end. Matt's not going to kill Bullseye and Batman's not going to kill Joker because future stories need to have Bullseye and Joker in them, not because of some morality bs.
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Daredevil24
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Daredevil24 wrote:
Matt isn't a killer,but he'd be willing to cross the line and kill someone as evil as the Joker to save hundres of lives and thousands in collateral damage.

And I'm saying that because of his principles and his belief in due process and the judicial system, he's unwilling to cross that line. Of course a figure like the Joker or Bullseye is abhorrent, but I think part of his nobility is the strength of his principles. How hard he holds on to him is the true test of his character.
And I'm saying you're wrong because he's already crossed that line on several occasions.Sorry,you can't pick and choose what you want to be continuity.Any reasonable hero would have killed the Joker a long time ago.That's what make Marvel heroes great,they're great because they're very human and flawed.It makes no sense why someone like Batman hasn't killed the Joker.At first Matt wouldn't kill the Joker,but eventually he would assuming he put him through everything he's Batman and Gotham through.He's too much of an evil to leave alive.
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