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Reading Born Again too early
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Ash-n-Bone
Tree of Knowledge


Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 223
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:50 am    Post subject: Reading Born Again too early Reply with quote

So I was just browsing random things online and decided to look up various reading lists people suggest for new Daredevil fans.

Pretty much all of the lists I came across recommend reading Born Again directly after The Man Without Fear or after the Miller/Janson run.

IMO that's really not a great place to read such a significant story. Firstly, it's great to have some background on Karen Page. Secondly, you should really get a better understanding of the war between DD and Kingpin. And finally, it's just too good of a book to read without really getting to know the world of Daredevil first.

When I was new to it, I used one of the recommended reading lists on this site as well as picking my own titles. So by the time I read BA, I had already read some of the Essential volumes, TMWF, the Miller/Janson run, Love and War, and a variety of single issues by a range of writers and artists.

Granted, if you're strapped for cash it's difficult to get hold of all of this material but before diving into BA and even Guardian Devil, it's worth reading the stuff that came before it.

Sorry for that long post, I'm currently bored as hell.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To each his own I guess but I disagree. I had only read a couple of DD issues when I got my hands on Born Again so it was essentially one of the very first DD things I read. I think it's a great introduction to the character. It tells you everything you need to know about the character and is a great distillation of who the character is. I tend to think all the other DD stories are a footnotes to Born Again. It's THE Daredevil story and everything else just fills in what happened before and after.

Plus, I think it's so well written that you don't need any back story. Karen loves Matt. Matt loves Karen. Kingpin is evil and doesn't like Daredevil. All the essential elements are introduced gracefully so the whole thing functions as a stand alone title.

Plus, plus, I almost feel like coming into Born Again without all the baggage was a good thing. Kingpin is a lot more evil in Born Again than he is prior (where he's a bit more goofy). And Born Again completely ignores the ninja stuff. It's actually weird that when he's going through such a terrible time Matt doesn't think of Elektra or Stick once. But it wasn't weird for me because I didn't even know those characters existed.

Anyway, that's my two cents that have obviously been coloured by the fact that I read BA first.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My view is you should read the original Miller run so you can get a good sense of the Daredevil/Kingpin dynamic and Matt Murdock's personality. I don't think you need to know anything about Karen Page beyond that she's a former love interest. Hell, I don't think Miller cared if you knew anything else about her (and I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't know anything else Wink ).

It never should be a starting story, but I don't think you need much else.
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Bullseye11
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Joined: 05 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with ash n bone. Born again, to me, is like the conclusion to miller's run. It builds on miller's run and concludes it by getting to the core of who daredevil really is. I read all of the essentials, all of millers previous run, and whatever back issues I could get my hands on before I read it and I was glad I waited so long. When I read it, it was a reward for reading everything previous. The previous issues showed me truly what matt lost and made the story more powerful. I know I read miller's the dark knight returns and felt it was a bit overrated because I'd never read a batman comic before so I didn't understand what it accomplished. In my opinion, when you read it before reading any other dd comics its a great story, but when you read it after reading lots of previous dd issues its the greatest comic story ever.
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Ash-n-Bone
Tree of Knowledge


Joined: 08 Apr 2009
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some interesting points made by those of you who disagree. I'll admit, I never thought of DD in terms of pre-BA and post-BA but I like the theory. I guess it really does come down to the individual.

Yes, I also felt "rewarded" in some sense which maybe why I'm all for waiting to read it rather than jumping straight in.

So what do you guys think about Guardian Devil or Yellow? Do they require some Karen knowledge or not?
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd recommend reading some Ann Nocenti before Guardian Devil, specifically the early stuff when Matt is flipping burgers and committing Unauthorized Practice of Law - the Matt/Karen scenes from Don't Touch Me/Touch Me (#243 & 244) more than make up for a relatively weak A Plot. The problem is availability. None of that is available. You can get some of Nocenti's Page during the Typhoid Mary saga, but it actively undercuts their relationship, which is unhelpful.

Another possible recommendation would be Joe Kelly's run when Karen is working at WFSK and is framed for murder by Mr. Fear. The problem is it's extremely similar to Guardian Devil, so Kevin Smith will come off as derivative (in fairness, maybe he should). I think you would get by fine just knowing that Karen is the love of his life (which you can get from Born Again).

Regarding Yellow, maybe read the early Stan Lee issues. But, under no circumstances should you go beyond what's in Yellow if your only interest is reading Yellow. The mutual Woe is Me that is the Matt/Karen relationship is insufferable. I frankly liked her better with my vague idea of her from Born Again with no prior knowledge (although Gene Colan draws her beautifully). It's really not until Nocenti that Karen truly becomes likable.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
Regarding Yellow, maybe read the early Stan Lee issues. But, under no circumstances should you go beyond what's in Yellow if your only interest is reading Yellow. The mutual Woe is Me that is the Matt/Karen relationship is insufferable. I frankly liked her better with my vague idea of her from Born Again with no prior knowledge (although Gene Colan draws her beautifully). It's really not until Nocenti that Karen truly becomes likable.

I'll agree with Mike when he says that it wasn't until Nocenti that she became a strong character. Going back and reading the Stan Lee Yellow Costume issues is painful, because Karen is such a weak female presence. Honestly, I don't hold the Matt/Karen relationship in high regard. I think the most profound relationship he's ever had with a woman is with Elektra.

I'm not a huge fan of Yellow for that reason: It's as if you have to place the Matt/Karen relationship on a pedastal in order to get anything out of the comic, and I just don't.

So I don't think, in order to enjoy Born Again, that you should have to read a whole bunch of old issues with Karen. I've read all of them, and the woman at the opening of Born Again is a different woman. All you have to know is that the woman who Matt used to love is a shell of her former self. I would recommend reading #168-191. If you need an origin story, Man Without Fear will do, but I think it's starts to show the bad habits Miller was starting to develop. I actually don't mind Season One.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a Daredevil Season One comic?
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Ash-n-Bone
Tree of Knowledge


Joined: 08 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^yeah, but I haven't read it because it seemed like yet another retelling of his origins. I could be wrong though.

Interesting that you guys were not fans of classic Karen Page though I understand it. Personally I always enjoyed seeing her, regardless of whether it was during Lee's run, Miller's, or Nocenti's. Actually, I think when Nocenti had her running around helping Daredevil it influenced how she's depicted in the Netflix series.

To me, Karen represents the life that Matt desperately strives for but is unable to attain. Elektra on the other hand is a symbol of the pain and conflict he struggles with. I love both characters, but Karen is just my preference.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
There's a Daredevil Season One comic?

Yes: http://shop.marvel.com/books-entertainment-daredevil-season-one-book/mp/16865/1000239/
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
There's a Daredevil Season One comic?


Yes, but it was horribly received. The Amazon reviews pretty much universally recommend ignoring it for Yellow. The reviews are on par with the recent Fall From Grace rerelease, and actually worse than the original FFG trade.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ash-n-Bone wrote:

So what do you guys think about Guardian Devil or Yellow? Do they require some Karen knowledge or not?


I say skip both. GD is terrible, full shop and Yellow adds exactly nothing.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullseye11 wrote:
I completely agree with ash n bone. Born again, to me, is like the conclusion to miller's run. It builds on miller's run and concludes it by getting to the core of who daredevil really is. I read all of the essentials, all of millers previous run, and whatever back issues I could get my hands on before I read it and I was glad I waited so long. When I read it, it was a reward for reading everything previous. The previous issues showed me truly what matt lost and made the story more powerful. I know I read miller's the dark knight returns and felt it was a bit overrated because I'd never read a batman comic before so I didn't understand what it accomplished. In my opinion, when you read it before reading any other dd comics its a great story, but when you read it after reading lots of previous dd issues its the greatest comic story ever.


But the Daredevil/Kingpin dynamic in Born Again is dramatically different than in the previous run. Born Again has such a different tone that it doesn't flow comfortably from the rest of Miller's run. It doesn't function or feel like a continuation or conclusion of his previous run at all.
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Bullseye11
Flying Blind


Joined: 05 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@james castle

To me this is more of a conclusion to all daredevil in general up to this point. Before Miller, writers never quite knew what to do with daredevil or what he really meant. Here miller tears down all of the material things in matts life and gets down to who he really is, thus truly defining and simplifying who daredevil is. To me, after reading born again, I felt like I could never read another dd story and still be satisfied. Born Again holds matts greatest challenge, and after it he finds out who he is and gets a well deserved happy ending.

[/quote]
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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom


Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you accept the conclusion that Miller is the best creator to have ever worked on DD, redefining the character forevermore, then I feel a new reader should start with Born Again and nowhere else.

First, it's the best known, most referenced work by Miller. It's also the one most imitated. So why not start here?

Second, for the most part, it is a self-contained complete story, with a beginning, middle, and end (and a happy one at that). You don't need a comprehensive knowledge of DD's past to enjoy it, not even a complete reading of Miller's original run either. Yes, if you have read Miller's original run, BA is a wonderful coda but again not necessary. Miller provides everything a new reader needs to follow and enjoy this tale of tragedy.

Third, if you are new to DD, BA is probably the best introduction one could get to the character. DD being an ongoing narrative, nothing is really spoiled in the rest of the title. And let's face it, if you don't enjoy/love BA, then odds are, you are not going to enjoy any other DD work.
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