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DD Book Club - Out
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This issue is famous for the opening speech. I like how it sets itself up to go either way. It's usually the "but I'm also Daredevil" type one. I'm reading it in my Bendis Ultimate Collection, so they're actually side by side, but I would imagine it was originally spaced so you had to turn the page. It's obviously drawn out (that first page wasn't really all that necessary), but this pacing was important (although it's like three issues of pacing at this point, so less so). Obviously, Matt is stuck in a difficult situation and his decision to deny is understandable. But you can see the lawsuit seems to cross the line and Ben Urich feels shame (as a reporter, he probably abhors taking the livelihood of a journalist in order to keep one's secret).

Maleev draws some gratuitous shots of Black Widow - like Joe Quesada in Guardian Devil gratuitous. I do like her introduction when she waltzes in and takes off her clothes (well, her disguise at least). Then again, the whole scene feels a little gratuitous. Tasha comes off as antsy to have fun with Matt. There doesn't really seem to be any other pressing reason to have Daredevil go out at night. Which, if this was called "Daredevil and Black Widow" and they were dating in San Francisco, it might make sense. But it doesn't really fit here. At best, it helps Foggy state that Matt is feeling guilty for the deaths of his father, Karen, and Elektra (really, Elektra? Once again, she's alive right now. There are plenty of other girlfriends Matt has had that are still dead). It does help paint another side of things - Matt seems to be firmly under Foggy's control in this decision to fight the outing and file the lawsuit. In fact, Foggy comes off as a bit selfish here (at least, they both do).

The last few pages are fine. It continues the story along. In fact, Venessa leaving, giving him the name of the FBI agent, foreshadowing that some other supervillain will take over for the Kingpin (no, not Donald Trump Wink ), and seeing Elektra on the roof are actual legitimate plot development in a reasonable period of time.

Overall, the plot continues. I like the beginning and I like the end. This feels like a lot of setup for what's to come. But we're five issues in, which is too late for setup. I'll give it Three and a Half Stars.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:



Honestly, Mr. Hyde would be more interesting as someone who's smarter. Maybe the formula affects his intelligence, but he invented that formula. He's clearly a scientific genius. If it pops up on Marvel Unlimited, I'd love to do the trial of Mr. Hyde story. Really, some I'd like to do more 90s in general.


There have been stories where Mr. Hyde has been written as an intelligent villain.

In the Peter David Spider-Man story, Hyde was kidnapping homeless people and trying to recreate the incident that gave Spider-man his powers after Spidey revealed his ID after Civil War. Also in the story where Hyde tried to blow up NYC to kill Cobra, he was fairly clever, coming up with the plan to destroy NYC and manipulating Batroc into helping. I also think Mr. Hyde was fairly intelligent in the

Some writers write Hyde as cunning, others write him as an idiot, I think the best of both worlds to his write him as clever, but short tempered. He can be goaded into abandoning his schemes with some taunting, but he is capable creating some sinister schemes before that point.

I would like to review the trail of Hyde story though.

Mike Murdock wrote:

Next up:

Daredevil Vol. 2 #36 - One Hundred Percent Untrue



Quote:
Guest-starring Luke Cage!


I've been trying to track down the original solicits because all the other synopses seemed too spoilery. I guess this is the opposite of that.

Due 12/17


Anyway, my thoughts on this issue:

This is more talking heads stuff.

Matt does a press conference to deny he is DD and sue the Globe for saying he is, despite the fact that is morally dubious, because they are telling the truth.

Black Widow shows up and does some cheese cake poses. She also says Matt needs to go out and beat up random bad guys. Here is the problem with that, Matt is clearly dealing with a million things at the moment and there seems to be no real major threat plaguing the city at the moment, so what does Black Widow need his help with? Does she think it would be therapeutic for Matt to go out as DD and beat some random muggers? If DD had been dealing with some villain ongoing basis, then BW would have a valid point, but its hard to argue the city needs DD, when the story doesn't present him with an ongoing threat to deal with, rather then easily defeated muggers and super villains.

Black Widow seems to suggest Foggy is being selfish for suggesting Matt give up being DD, which I think is more of a complex debate then the story presents it.

Matt having a dinner with Vanessa Fisk in Fisk tower was kinda interesting, though its weird that she is being so friendly here, when she was plotting his downfall in Brubaker's run, but I suppose that is not Bendis' fault. Maybe Vanessa became bitter over Matt's unnecessary jab at her dead son. Though I disagree Dimetre, lots of famous art works are based on religion and I can see Wilson and Vanessa buying something like that. Its also unintentionally funny that Trump buys Fisk towers, I wonder if he planned his campaign there.

Anyway, the only other things that happen is an unnecessary cameo by Luke Cage and a cameo by Elektra to cap off the issue. This issue had too many random cameos, who didn't add much to the story, again this story is random stuff happens.

It needed more of an anchor to work, with a B plot with DD dealing with B-list villain like Mr. Hyde as a framing device for the entire story or doing more and better character related stuff, with more varied reactions from civilians, heroes and villains that make DD's reveal more impactful or a combination of the two.

I have seen an episode of Batman of the animated series deal with other characters reacting and discussing Batman and having a B-list villain as a framing device in 22 minutes. Out is all over the place, it doesn't know if wants to tell a DD story or a story where other characters react to DD. We have had lots of story space where DD doesn't appear and its just FBI agents or the Bugle staff reacting to DD's outing and then suddenly, the story tries to go back to Matt, tell one story or other and either way, give it more meat.

I give this issue 2 and a half stars.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #37 - Dancing Between the Raindrops



Quote:
Elektra guest-stars in the stunning conclusion to the epic of the year!


Probably the best titled issue so far.

Due 12/24
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cover plays up Elektra's presence in this issue. The last issue used her appearance as a cliffhanger, but I don't feel like she added much of anything to the story. I can't figure out why Black Widow contacted her. If Natasha thinks Matt is in a funk, that's what she thinks is going to snap him out of it? If my friend was in a funk, does it sound like a good idea to call up the love of his life who he can never be with? It makes no sense. Her appearance here is just a stunt to get fans to buy the issue.

As for what Matt reveals in that scene, it's admirable, but not that surprising. "I know why I'm Daredevil and I know how important it is. And if I want to keep it all -- I just have to fight smarter than I have been. Maybe smarter than I am." It's true to the "never give up" spirit Matt has, but given the way Bendis and Maleev have built this scene, with the intention of getting Matt to open up, I guess I expected something more profound, or at least surprising.

Anyway, I felt Elektra's appearance didn't amount to anything.

I thought the scene with Ingersol was better. Foggy's "Well... no coffee for you" line was genuinely funny. The thing is, I completely agree with Ingersol. I love the free press, and I feel it needs to be protected. I can understand the contempt Ingersol has towards Nelson and Murdock at this moment. Maybe he's being rude with remarks like "fruity costume," but a lawyer representing a newspaper that knows it printed the truth wouldn't have a good attitude going into a meeting like this. And Matt is my hero! I shouldn't be sympathizing with someone who is insulting him. Maybe Bendis is trying to show how much of an ethical mess Matt is in, but the very next scene makes it even worse.

We all know that the FBI agent shouldn't have told the globe Daredevil's secret identity, but I'm very uncomfortable with Matt using intimidation to get him to recant his story.

Bendis said the following in an interview:
Quote:
“Matt’s an asshole,” Bendis said. “He’s not a nice guy. That’s the one thing people pretend not to see because technically in the Frank Miller run, Matt was a raging asshole. He was so mean to Heather Glenn it was shocking and he’s not very nice to Foggy and he truly loves Foggy, but Foggy is just put into this unbelievable situation, where either you’re his friend and this is what you deal with or you leave. There is no being half of Matt’s friend. So, Matt looks at this and goes ‘Poor Foggy.'”
http://www.cbr.com/truth-or-daredevil-bendis-talks-the-end-of-his-daredevil-run/

Never mind that Matt only started treating Heather badly once Elektra re-entered his life and especially in the aftermath of her murder. He was dealing with his private grief over the love of his life, and he wasn't in a place where he could express it to Heather. It shows a huge misunderstanding of who Matt is on the part of Bendis. But he uses that example to justify him having Matt sue the Globe and use intimidation on the FBI agent. I have always thought Matt had higher standards for his own behaviour. Under Bendis' pen, it seems Matt will do anything that will get his aims met. Would Bendis' Daredevil have pulled Bullseye out of the path of that oncoming subway train? I'm not so sure he would.

As for the scene with Rosenthal, I have always hated that scene for similar reasons, but I guess I had forgotten how Matt demanded that half the money go to the National Endowment for the Blind, the other half to the Hell's Kitchen Restoration Society, and that Rosenthal guarantee that there will be no employee layoffs at the Globe for two calendar years. But, again, I can't ignore the fact that Rosenthal did nothing wrong! He's absolutely right. If Matt hadn't gotten the FBI agent to recant his story, Rosenthal would have been doing the very best thing for his paper by defending the story. I find it sad that he's now in a position where he can't prove the story's truth, and that's because Matt, our hero, did something very crooked. I think it's admirable that Rosenthal won't allow himself to be conned.

I think it's worth pointing out that we don't see Matt using the strategy of "fighting smarter" he mentioned during his scene with Elektra. There's nothing smart about what he's doing. I wouldn't call the intimidation of the FBI agent "smart."

Bendis seems to go out of his way on the last few pages to show the people of Hell's Kitchen shouting praise to Daredevil. "Guy's going to take all the crap he takes and still put it out there for the people?"

I guess we're supposed to admire that Matt is still saving lives even though he's dealing with this story in the Globe. That's admirable, I suppose, but if he didn't the adventures of Matt Murdock wouldn't be worth printing.

This entire "arc" is founded upon the premise that the Globe would have published the FBI agent's story, and james castle has already pointed out the absurdity of that premise. What makes "Out" more annoying for me is the snail's pace and how unsympathetic Matt has become in this particular issue.

I give this issue, along with the entirity of "Out" a two out of five.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue starts off where we left off with Matt encountering Elektra. I like the awkwardness here. I think the relationship that's been lost when Elektra turned cold (and murdery) is a far more interesting discussion than the usual one of Matt being sad that she died when she's not dead. The opening was rushed, I don't think it had a great impact, but there was tenderness there. And Matt clearly wants that tenderness to return. Now I can't say it adds anything. An Elektra/Daredevil story would have made more sense.

The rest of the issue is devoted to the lawsuit. Obviously, the whole lawsuit is shades of gray (at best) and it starts off with Daredevil witness intimidation, which isn't great. After that, he has a huge advantage to force a settlement, but it's fair to say that he's incredibly smug about it. It's hard to view him as particularly likable. I won't go as far as to say it's out of character. He's always been in shades of gray, but it certainly skirts the line. It's the reason why I've argued that it only makes sense if he's still suffering from grief over Karen's death and is trying to control the rest of his life. It's also why I've said that Bendis is a poor start to reading Daredevil because it gives a false impression of the character.

That being said, I like the ending. The mix of inspiration (the public doesn't care who he is, they view him as a hero) with the overlaying text that his secret will be out there and there's nothing that can be done to take it back. It is a big story and I applaud that, even if the execution has been weak and slow so far.

Three and a Half Stars.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean to post a review sooner, but life gets in the way.

This issue felt like another pointless issue in an arc with very little substance to it.

Elektra's appearance added nothing to the story, it could have been cut and nothing would be lost. Black Widow thinking Matt seeing Black Widow would snap him out of his current mental state is bad judgment on her part.

How much of a jerk Matt is depends on the wrter, though Nocenti suggested Matt was a bully sometimes her stories, but Matt's actions against the Globe have no moral justification.

You can argue the Globe has engaged in sloppy journalism, but they did print the truth, the Globe's owner can't be expected to just take a 75 million dollar loss and not try to recoup losses with down sizing, that is not feasible, even if he is a rich, someone would have to pay if Matt is suggesting they are running a false story, if Matt is saying the guy who wrote the story was lying or incompetent, then the Globe would have to fire that guy and even a big business cannot just absorb a 75 million dollar loss with no consequences, especially something as fickle as the media business. I don't see how this is a gray issue if the Globe did nothing wrong, besides being sloppy, but they were right in the end.

Matt loses any sort of moral high ground with his witness intimidation.

Really not much happened in this issue, just like not much happened in this whole arc, I think its one of Bendis' weakest stories on this title.

I will give this issue 2 stars.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, I would argue Matt's not supposed to have the moral high ground. I think he's desperate. He's clinging onto something he doesn't want to lose. But he's not making a morally correct decision. I think the question is how we should feel about him given that he isn't behaving morally here.
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Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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The Overlord
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Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
FWIW, I would argue Matt's not supposed to have the moral high ground. I think he's desperate. He's clinging onto something he doesn't want to lose. But he's not making a morally correct decision. I think the question is how we should feel about him given that he isn't behaving morally here.


Okay then, what then what's the thrust of this story?

Is it supposed to be a moral dilemma? A good moral dilemma should put you in a situation where there is a morally difficult choice and there are bad consequences either way, but you have to make a hard choice. This doesn't seem like that all, because there is no basis for his suit against the Globe, this is not a complex situation, his suit has no grounds and he knows it.

I think Matt could have tried to keep his secret ID, without trying to rip off someone who is not guilty on anything, expect maybe sloppy reporting.

Yeah, you can argue the money is going to charity, but to expect a company to take a 75 million dollar loss and not lay off anyone, is childishly naive. Companies just don't take those kind of losses and do nothing about them, at least the guy who wrote the story would be fired.

Sometimes you just have to expect reality and move on, Matt trying to ignore that makes him seem like he is being counterproductive. One thing I don't like about modern comics is it often seems like actions don't have consequences or heroes come up with ways to weasel out of the consequences of their actions and really Matt has been sloppy with his secret ID for a while, so this whole thing is kinda his own fault, he should own that, rather then trying to bilk people for telling the truth.

Again this story lacks a cohesive center. I actually like Bendis' run, but I never liked this arc.


Last edited by The Overlord on Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my favorite Youtube channels is Strip Panel Naked. This week he did an analysis of one of the latter issues (I believe it's Dancing Between the Raindrops). Basically, he gave his thoughts on how the art in particular worked well with the narrative to essentially sell this claustrophobic feeling around Matt. This channel is almost always much better at analyzing things than I am, so I think it's worth a quick watch:

How Daredevil Builds Claustrophobia
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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