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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject: New Villains in Daredevil Comics |
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I noticed something with Daredevil comics, a writer will introduce new villains and use them in their run and then they are hardly, if ever, used again.
Of the Nocenti villains, only Typhoid Mary has had any staying power. Bushwacker and Bullet were interesting concepts, that got left by the wayside after Nocenti left the title. Ammo was kinda dull and the Wildboys would need a revamp to be relevant and compelling.
I liked some of the villains Waid introduced, like Ikari and Coyote, but I wonder if we will see them ever again. It would be a shame if they never appeared again.
I like some of the villains Soule has introduced, like the Muse.
Don't get me wrong, some villains were meant to be one shot bad guys and don't really need to appear again, like Sammy Silke, Rotgut, etc.
But I do think it would be nice if some of these new villains stuck around after their creator leaves.
The only recent villain that has had any staying power is Lady Bullseye and I think that is because she shares the name with a major Miller villain.
It does seem like at the end of the day, the DD title goes back to Kingpin, Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, the Hand and Owl for some reason, as the only reoccurring major villains.
Are there villains who you feel should be reoccurring enemies? |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I do think Mr. Fear and the Purple Man qualify a little more than you're giving credit for. That being said, to the extent he's not considered a recurring villain, I do nominate Mr. Fear. I think he continues to be one of the more compelling villains Daredevil has. He was the first one to know Daredevil's secret identity and exploited it just as effectively as Kingpin did.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | | FWIW, I do think Mr. Fear and the Purple Man qualify a little more than you're giving credit for. That being said, to the extent he's not considered a recurring villain, I do nominate Mr. Fear. I think he continues to be one of the more compelling villains Daredevil has. He was the first one to know Daredevil's secret identity and exploited it just as effectively as Kingpin did. |
Yeah, but Mr. Fear has not appeared in a DD title for almost a decade and I'm not sure if Purple Man is still a DD villain or not, at this point he is more well known for destroying Jessica Jones' life then anything he has done in the DD titles.
I left out discussing Mr. Fear, because he wasn't a "new" villain, having first appeared in Daredevil 6 (even though that wasn't the version of the character that became a relevant villain). But really the Larry Cranston version of Mr. Fear has only had 3 major stories. He is kinda a symptoms of what I was discussing, that most of the reoccurring slots go to the same 5 villains. DD and Cranston needed to have a rematch a long time ago, its just odd that never happened and Cranston got lost in the shuffle, now you have remind people of old plot threads when you bring him back. I'm not even sure if Cranston still knows DD's ID at this point.
But I think you are right, he really needs to more of a reoccurring enemy.
I don't know why Owl is so reoccurring, he is an alright concept and he has certainly had his moments, but too often he falls into generic villainy and I don't think he has had a really great story.
The writers also seem to like bringing back Stilt-Man for a cheap laugh or an action scene. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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The Owl was basically somebody who made sense before they imported the Kingpin. They knew they needed a mob leader type character and they kept trying different people - including the Owl on several occasions. Once the Kingpin arrived, he had to reinvent himself, so they made him unstable and even more freakish. I think it was Bendis's desire to use him that helped keep in in notoriety.
Mr. Fear has essentially two stories I know about in the post-Miller timeframe - Joe Kelly's run and Ed Brubaker's run. It's a shame that it wasn't picked up after, but that basically boils down to saying "it's a shame Mark Waid didn't use him."
That being said, I'll try and return to the actual topic of "new" villains. I'll separate it into two categories, Post-Miller Volume 1 and Volumes 2, 3, and 4. i'll think about that first category later. For the other one, though, part of the problem is there haven't been many:
Smith - Mysterio
Mack - Kingpin
Gale - Jester
Bendis - Leapfrog, Kingpin, Nitro, Mr. Hyde, Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, The Owl, Yakuza, Hydra, Jigsaw, whatever the hell the thing in Decalogue was
Brubaker - Hammerhead, Tombstone, Matador, Mr. Fear, Gladiator, Lady Bullseye, Kingpin
Diggle - The Hand
I'll have to take some more time for Mark Waid. The point, though, is who is a new villain aside from Lady Bullseye? There seems to be very few opportunities.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | The Owl was basically somebody who made sense before they imported the Kingpin. They knew they needed a mob leader type character and they kept trying different people - including the Owl on several occasions. Once the Kingpin arrived, he had to reinvent himself, so they made him unstable and even more freakish. I think it was Bendis's desire to use him that helped keep in in notoriety.
Mr. Fear has essentially two stories I know about in the post-Miller timeframe - Joe Kelly's run and Ed Brubaker's run. It's a shame that it wasn't picked up after, but that basically boils down to saying "it's a shame Mark Waid didn't use him."
That being said, I'll try and return to the actual topic of "new" villains. I'll separate it into two categories, Post-Miller Volume 1 and Volumes 2, 3, and 4. i'll think about that first category later. For the other one, though, part of the problem is there haven't been many:
Smith - Mysterio
Mack - Kingpin
Gale - Jester
Bendis - Leapfrog, Kingpin, Nitro, Mr. Hyde, Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, The Owl, Yakuza, Hydra, Jigsaw, whatever the hell the thing in Decalogue was
Brubaker - Hammerhead, Tombstone, Matador, Mr. Fear, Gladiator, Lady Bullseye, Kingpin
Diggle - The Hand
I'll have to take some more time for Mark Waid. The point, though, is who is a new villain aside from Lady Bullseye? There seems to be very few opportunities. |
I don't think we have to completely rigid in regards to the topic premise, I think we can discuss other villains who are not new persay.
I actually think Owl could easily serve a purpose in the post Miller world, as Kingpin's less competent, but more crazy rival. Someone who doesn't care about his standing with the public, someone who is an even worse boss then Fisk (I think Fisk wouldn't try to feed his underlings to rats) and is willing to cross lines that even Fisk wouldn't (I don't think Fisk is a rapist, for example), which sets up a real contrast between the two, rather then writing him as a generic crime boss when the writers don't feel like using Fisk.
I mentioned 2 villains that Waid created that are and I think Soule is adding some new villains as well.
I think if you take the most promising Silver Age villains, some of the better Nocenti villains and kept some of the better new villains created recently, you could have a recent rogues gallery for DD.
I also wonder if Mr. Hyde is a DD villain or a general Marvel villain who fights DD sometimes.
I think a problem is, there are too many stories with guest villains, in the last couple of years there have been stories with Jigsaw, Mole Man, Mysterio, Klaw, Hydra, etc and well those stories can be good, they won't really build towards anything, because we know Mole Man is not going to become a full time DD villain, he will remain an FF villain. Sure Kingpin switched in the 80s, but that was because the Spider-Man writers had no plans for him and he fit well in DD's world, I'm not sure you can say the same for these other villains. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:16 am Post subject: |
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I do think Ikari has potential to stay. He's too new to say that he's been abandoned at all. My interpretation of Coyote is he was directly powered by the Spot, so I doubt he's coming back.
| The Overlord wrote: | I'm not even sure if Cranston still knows DD's ID at this point.
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I suspect he doesn't. My hope is he figures it out again. Alternatively, I want everyone to forget he is Mr. Fear and create a lawyer rivalry between him and Matt (awhile back I was bored and ended up writing ideas for about ten issues of Daredevil that no one cared to read. It centered on Mr. Fear basically becoming a prosecutor and using his fear powers to enhance his trial success and his position as a prosecutor to cement power as Mr. Fear).
As for Nocenti villains. There have unfortunately been only two with staying power and, one of those, is Blackheart, who is no longer a Daredevil villain. I really like Bullet and hope he comes back. I think the same for Bushwacker who, in fairness, did last through the 90s before he died. The unfortunate thing is Bullet, (iirc) Ammo, and Shotgun were basically used as joke throwaway characters by Bendis and that hurt their chances. But I think all three could be used effectively, but they're not going to make headlines. The Wildboys could work (they actually appeared in Chichester's run as well). Another one I nearly forgot was The Nameless One. I actually think he has potential.
I'm just flat out less familiar with Chichester, but I figure I should discuss him a bit. There's the Surgeon General, who died at the end of her two-parter. Dead Man's Hand had a bunch of random villains like Slug and the Strucker twins. Chichester reused The Nameless One before the character completely fell into obscurity. Shock is a character who is basically a female Mr. Fear. I don't know if I'd want her back, but there's room for her. I'm going to do my best to not think about Fall From Grace, but I don't recall any reusable villains outside of Snakeroot (which is basically the Hand). Tree of Knowledge is the same (mostly Hydra). I'm going to stop there because Fall From Grace and Tree of Knowledge completely drained me just thinking about them.
TL;DR:
Sorry about basically rambling. I think I wanted to basically point out two things: Nocenti clearly created far more villain potential than Chichester. If her run were more popular today, I think we'd see more of them. Her street-level characters get occasional use, but people like Bendis used them so generically that they've lost all real purpose. The ones that are the easiest to use remain Bullet (who I love), Bushwacker, Shotgun, Ammo, and the Wildboys. Each of them have, in fact, been used since Nocenti's run. I also think The Nameless One has potential, as long as you're not opposed to pretend Haitian mysticism being a part of Daredevil. I see nothing from Chichester's run outside of the Snakeroot with any potential.
ETA: I was going to do a separate post with the rest of volume one, but you really just have Devourer (who cares), Sir (bad idea), and Insomnia (boring idea).
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | I do think Ikari has potential to stay. He's too new to say that he's been abandoned at all. My interpretation of Coyote is he was directly powered by the Spot, so I doubt he's coming back.
| The Overlord wrote: | I'm not even sure if Cranston still knows DD's ID at this point.
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I suspect he doesn't. My hope is he figures it out again. Alternatively, I want everyone to forget he is Mr. Fear and create a lawyer rivalry between him and Matt (awhile back I was bored and ended up writing ideas for about ten issues of Daredevil that no one cared to read. It centered on Mr. Fear basically becoming a prosecutor and using his fear powers to enhance his trial success and his position as a prosecutor to cement power as Mr. Fear).
As for Nocenti villains. There have unfortunately been only two with staying power and, one of those, is Blackheart, who is no longer a Daredevil villain. I really like Bullet and hope he comes back. I think the same for Bushwacker who, in fairness, did last through the 90s before he died. The unfortunate thing is Bullet, (iirc) Ammo, and Shotgun were basically used as joke throwaway characters by Bendis and that hurt their chances. But I think all three could be used effectively, but they're not going to make headlines. The Wildboys could work (they actually appeared in Chichester's run as well). Another one I nearly forgot was The Nameless One. I actually think he has potential.
I'm just flat out less familiar with Chichester, but I figure I should discuss him a bit. There's the Surgeon General, who died at the end of her two-parter. Dead Man's Hand had a bunch of random villains like Slug and the Strucker twins. Chichester reused The Nameless One before the character completely fell into obscurity. Shock is a character who is basically a female Mr. Fear. I don't know if I'd want her back, but there's room for her. I'm going to do my best to not think about Fall From Grace, but I don't recall any reusable villains outside of Snakeroot (which is basically the Hand). Tree of Knowledge is the same (mostly Hydra). I'm going to stop there because Fall From Grace and Tree of Knowledge completely drained me just thinking about them.
TL;DR:
Sorry about basically rambling. I think I wanted to basically point out two things: Nocenti clearly created far more villain potential than Chichester. If her run were more popular today, I think we'd see more of them. Her street-level characters get occasional use, but people like Bendis used them so generically that they've lost all real purpose. The ones that are the easiest to use remain Bullet (who I love), Bushwacker, Shotgun, Ammo, and the Wildboys. Each of them have, in fact, been used since Nocenti's run. I also think The Nameless One has potential, as long as you're not opposed to pretend Haitian mysticism being a part of Daredevil. I see nothing from Chichester's run outside of the Snakeroot with any potential.
ETA: I was going to do a separate post with the rest of volume one, but you really just have Devourer (who cares), Sir (bad idea), and Insomnia (boring idea). |
I got to be honest, I think some of those villains would only be interesting with a major revamp and a change of roles.
DC comics has been great at taking B-list and C-list villains like Black Hand, Calculator and Catman and giving them new roles, to make them more exciting and relevant.
The Wildboys are pretty lame villains, they are just two random thugs, they seem like the kinda guys DD beats up with ease on a regular basis. But if the Wild Boys were retconned into a giant street gang that lured disaffected youth into its ranks and did bagman jobs for Fisk, they would be far more relevant.
The Surgeon General is in the same boat, creepy concept, lame execution, she is just another silly gimmick villain who has no business fighting DD. If she had a support role, a criminal surgeon who patches up criminals and deals in the organ trade, rather then someone who goes out and tries to steal organs herself with silly surgeon gimmicks, she would be more menacing.
That is what I would say, if some of these villains just don't work in their original role, change their roles.
It is a shame if Coyote never showed up again, I liked him. I hope Ikrai shows up again. Waid also created Bruiser, but he was a basic dumb muscle villain.
In volume 2, the only new villain besides Lady Bullseye was Echo, but she was more of a temporary adversary turned hero. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:30 am Post subject: |
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I forgot about Bruiser. I liked him.
I consider Kingpin, not Echo, to be the true villain of Parts of a Hole.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | | I was going to do a separate post with the rest of volume one, but you really just have Devourer (who cares), Sir (bad idea), and Insomnia (boring idea). |
I don't know anything about Devourer, but I have always thought it was a shame we never saw Sir again. Such a psychologically damaged character, with so much savagery. I see some real story potential there, and I don't know why Sir is so unpopular. At this point, I don't see Sir coming back, because it seems I'm alone in feeling this way.
I don't think there was much to celebrate in Insomnia's story, but, given her power set, I think she could be a good rival for Matt. I don't think she would ever rise to the top of his rogue's gallery, but I can imagine a few stories in which someone like her would play a role. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sir is problematic because it comes off as borderline transphobic.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | | Sir is problematic because it comes off as borderline transphobic. |
Maybe you're right, but maybe a writer could come along and do it properly. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | Mike Murdock wrote: | | Sir is problematic because it comes off as borderline transphobic. |
Maybe you're right, but maybe a writer could come along and do it properly. |
Or maybe some characters should just stay in the past. Not every villain ages well.
I think Dematteis was trying to make some comments about women who are filled with self loathing about there gender or trying to create a villain similar to Buffalo Bill from Silent of the Lambs, but the execution was flawed and didn't work.
I would put Big Sir pretty low on the list of post Miller villains who should return. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | Dimetre wrote: | | Mike Murdock wrote: | | Sir is problematic because it comes off as borderline transphobic. |
Maybe you're right, but maybe a writer could come along and do it properly. |
Or maybe some characters should just stay in the past. Not every villain ages well.
I think Dematteis was trying to make some comments about women who are filled with self loathing about there gender or trying to create a villain similar to Buffalo Bill from Silent of the Lambs, but the execution was flawed and didn't work.
I would put Big Sir pretty low on the list of post Miller villains who should return. |
Yeah. "I'm actually a woman!" is sort of a weird "big reveal!" in this day and age and without that Sir wasn't much or a character.
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