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Daredevil 8: Echo - Vision Quest
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Francesco
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my country it hasn't even been published.
No wonder, sales of DD were already poor, go figure if they put a visionary graphic novel based on a secondary character for the lenght of six months.
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harryhausen
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
harryhausen wrote:
But I think it's cool that they slipped it to us in the guise of a DD comic - like when an established band makes a record with a bunch of idiosyncratic guests and it differs wildly from their canon, but is a marvelous anomaly.


Or like when an analogy goes way wrong and makes no sense but is different because analogies usually make sense?


What don't you get, Castle? Let's say you were a David Bowie fan and had listened to his music for years. Then he teams up with Eno and makes 'Low' - a record that was (and still, to some degree is) outside the scope of his prior and/or usual output. A record that bears the marks of Eno as much as Bowie. One might come to love this unusual and unexpected departure.

In the above (extended) analogy, the output of David Bowie prior to the release of 'Low' is equated to the DD canon prior to the 'Echo' arc in volume II. 'Low' itself is then equated to the 'Echo' arc - a work that is both of and not of the accepted parameters of the canon in question. I think it's pretty applicable.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that analogy holds.

A better one might be: what if you were a fan of David Bowie, and bought his next album - only to find that it contained music by a completely different artist, (maybe with Bowie singing a guest-spot on one of the tracks)? It might be great music in its own right, but it wouldn't be what you thought you were buying.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

harryhausen wrote:
james castle wrote:
harryhausen wrote:
But I think it's cool that they slipped it to us in the guise of a DD comic - like when an established band makes a record with a bunch of idiosyncratic guests and it differs wildly from their canon, but is a marvelous anomaly.


Or like when an analogy goes way wrong and makes no sense but is different because analogies usually make sense?


What don't you get, Castle? Let's say you were a David Bowie fan and had listened to his music for years. Then he teams up with Eno and makes 'Low' - a record that was (and still, to some degree is) outside the scope of his prior and/or usual output. A record that bears the marks of Eno as much as Bowie. One might come to love this unusual and unexpected departure.

In the above (extended) analogy, the output of David Bowie prior to the release of 'Low' is equated to the DD canon prior to the 'Echo' arc in volume II. 'Low' itself is then equated to the 'Echo' arc - a work that is both of and not of the accepted parameters of the canon in question. I think it's pretty applicable.


See, what you don't get is that we're not talking about "DD canon", we're talking about the DD monthly comic. The one that is about him. If VQ was it's own mini it would have been part of the "DD canon" because she's sort of a DD-related character. That doesn't mean she can be shoe horned into becoming the star of the ongoing.

I agree with DW too. Your analogy doesn't work. Different David Bowie is still David Bowie. Echo isn't Daredevil.
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harryhausen
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Joined: 20 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, OK. I see what both of you guys are saying. Perhaps the difference is that I think 'Low' is basically an Eno record with flashes of Bowie (like, admittedly, the Echo arc is an Echo story with bits of DD).

You're right, Castle, when viewed in light of the fact that it supplanted the monthly DD, Echo's arc is not truly a Daredevil story, but a story about his supporting cast. Point taken. Canon v. ongoing, well delineated, sirs.

I gotta say two more things, though:

1. I reread the arc last night and loved it still. I was surprised to find more Daredevil, Fisk, etc. in it than I remembered. It even (very obliquely) references all the plot developments in Bendis's run. Everyone's right that you could skip it and not miss any of the flow of Bendis's story, but it does fit. Plus, it's a good read.

2. I re-listened to 'Low' and one would be hard-pressed to deem it a Bowie record. Especially side B (vinyl's where it's at - get with it, People!). It's great, too.

An Eno record with Bowie's name on the cover (and his contributions, of course) and an Echo story with Daredevil's name on the cover.

In both instances, the readers/listeners were given something other than what they might have expected. In both instances the results are fascinating.

Now, let me suggest that you all re-read the 'Echo' arc while listening to side B of 'Low' again and again - it's your own vision quest! Minus the fasting and the Indians . . .

Also, to bring this back to Drazaq's original post. I think it's a shame if Mack's 'Echo' story is forever colored by the decisions of Marvel editorial and the subverted expectations of the DD monthly. In retrospect, it's great (better and even more relevant to ongoing DD than, say, Battlin' Jack, for instance) and it's too bad that the bad taste left - quite rightly - in readers' mouths will taint it for those looking to read the back issues or trade.

Too, let me make it clear that everyone who has posted here has not disparaged Mack's work or this arc, just vented about it being slipped into the DD monthly. But the aura of negativity could turn off someone who would love this story. Like Drazaq will, I hope.
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train
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
Yeah, I obviously blame editorial over Mack. Obviously it was their decision and thus their fault. It's also their scam. The thing that makes me mad about the whole thing is that Marvel got to make a bunch of money by mislabeling the story. I wonder if an Echo mini would have sold as well as it did while pretending to be issues of DD.


I totally agree. I doubt that a stand alone Echo series would have sold well at all. Surely it wouldn't have cracked the top 100. (Talking about this makes me wonder how the White Tiger mini sold)

james castle wrote:
As for the "well, it's better than nothing" argument people keep throwing out: just because you like Mack's art doesn't justify replacing the DD monthly with an Echo mini for half a year. I really like the X-Men. If all the sudden the DD monthly was taken over by a six part X-Men story writen by someone I like I'd probably like it. But I wouldn't pretend it was anything short of ridiculous.


Again, I totally agree. I've been around DD long enough to have purchased a couple of fill-in issues when they were published. With the exception of one (DD vol 1 issue 380) the fill-ins have been terrible. DD vol.1 issue 261, vol.1 issue 264 and vol. 2 issue 12 immediately come to mind. If you don't remember, dig those little gems out of your long boxes and give 'em a read. So, while the Echo story was "ridiculous", I'd rather have it as compared to the above mentioned issues.

rgj wrote:
Eventhough it's Marvel, who says that the alternative DD story has to "crap." No, it's Marvel's responsibility, if a creative team needs a break, to then get a temp team to try to do something decent.


Given the examples mentioned above, why would I assume that the temp team was anything but crap?

I can hear the reply already, the Echo story was a 6 issue series not a 1 month fill-in. Apparantly, BENDIS! and Maleev needed an extended break. I'd rather have 6 months of Mack instead of 6 months of "Baby Boom" or "Gun Play". Just my $0.02
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Darediva
Wake Up


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

train wrote:


I can hear the reply already, the Echo story was a 6 issue series not a 1 month fill-in. Apparantly, BENDIS! and Maleev needed an extended break. I'd rather have 6 months of Mack instead of 6 months of "Baby Boom" or "Gun Play". Just my $0.02


Add my $.02 to yours, train. I'll admit to being smitten with David Mack's art, so when we got that instead of some really inferior art and slapped together stories, I was satisfied to wait for Bendis and Maleev to return.

I got to see a lot the original art of that series. A real treat.
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Drazaq
Flying Blind


Joined: 27 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey all,

I was very interested to see all of your comments and analogies (even though I am not a Bowie fan). I am still waiting on my Vision Quest to be delivered, and am quietly excited about the prospect. None of you have been particularly negative about the art or the story line (and no spoilers either!) so I am hoping for a decent hours' read.

What I would like to know though, is if there are any other random mini-series disguised as DD-continuity slipped in in any of the subsequent volumes? And if so, are they also worth getting?

As an aside, have any of you heard the Flight of the Conchords Bowie song? Very amusing Laughing
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jumonji
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, as a new poster in this forum I find myself resurrecting a bunch of dead threads from before "my time." Anyhoo...

I read Vol 2 in TPB so I didn't have to sit through six months of Echo like most of you guys, and at first I ignored this arc altogether. While I liked some aspects of the Parts of a Hole arc, I remain unimpressed with Echo as a character. I know she was probably created in some sort of attempt to do an exploration of the senses, but I find the whole "my life is a silent movie" bit a little tiresome. But it's a comic book so I'll let it slide.*

What I did like about the Vision Quest arc was the art, which is just breathtaking. However, I agree with what most of you have said about how it doesn't really belong in the DD title, and I can't imagine how annoying it must have been for those of you who had to wait it out. The parts where DD is actually in it are nice though.

*Though I find it hilarious that Mack actually made the same mistake twice, years apart (why didn't anyone bring this to his attention?!) of stating that Echo competed in the Special Olympics. Yeah, the one that's for people with mental retardation... Ahem. Rolling Eyes
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Drazaq
Flying Blind


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its ironic you posted today, as I finally got my Vision Quest in the post, and I just finished reading it yesterday. I am very glad I only read trades and didnt have to sit through this whilst waiting for something to happen to the title character. that aside, the art is cool. And unlike in Parts of a Hole..there isnt as much 'chatter' surrounding the pges by Mack, making for a slightly easier read on the whole. All in all, it was a cool little story...although with no real resolution for me. Turns out Echo already knew the answer, just needed to be half dead with hunger and thirst to realise it Confused
Now I can finally order volume 9 and get back to the good **** in the world of DD! Thanks to all that posted on this thread. Am I sad that I'm kinda proud this thread actually ran to two pages? (thats rhetorical btw Laughing )
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, you should totally be proud that the thread has run to two pages! This is really a fun message board, but I think it has been on the quiet side for the last couple of weeks. I guess everyone is waiting for DD #101 to come out or something. Since I'm in Sweden I've decided to go the TPB route. It's just easier that way. Well, I'm glad you enjoyed the story. It's not a bad story, I'm just not really impressed with the premise of the character. But again, the art is spectacular. Smile
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harryhausen
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 20 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji, I'll have to check it out in Parts of a Hole, but I think Mack was using the term ‘Special Olympics’ in a more metaphorical sense. Doesn’t he say something like: ‘I went from Special Olympics to Olympic Gold.’ ? I took that to mean that she went from being called ‘retarded’ to being amazingly gifted in the physical sense. I don’t think she really competed in either Olympics.

Yes, yes I’m the crazed defender of the Echo arc! Anyone want to arm-wrestle?

btw, I love your insights in light of the fact that you've ingested the DD canon in short order - I did something similar, too, and it was/is fun.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for calling ingesting a lot of DD a good thing! Smile It has been fun though. I should never have quit comics in the first place!

About the Special Olympics bit, I think he really does mean it literally (at least in the Parts of a Hole arc). But then again, a lot of people are confused by this, so it's totally understandable if he got it wrong. Aside from the regular Olympics, there are three other "imprints" approved by the IOC (International Olympic Committee). The first one is the Paralympics, which obviously is for people with physical disabilities. There are also the Special Olympics, for the mentally challenged, and the Deaflympics. Obviously, quite a few deaf people have competed in the regular Olympics as well (such as Terrence Parkins from South Africa who won a silver medal in swimming at the 2000 Olympics in Sydney). Anyway, it would have made more sense to have Echo compete in the Deaflympics than in the Special Olympics. Smile

And I totally respect you for defending the Echo arc! Very Happy It's nice in a lot of ways. And, once again, the art is spectacular. I think one reason I have such a problem with the character is that I actually have quite frequent run-ins with deaf people (and yes, I know both Swedish and American Sign Language well enough to carry on half-decent conversations in both, even though I'm not nearly as fluent as I'd like to be). So, whenever someone comes along and propagates a lot of stereotypes about deaf people, I just get slightly annoyed. I can't really help it.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing, I just have to apologize if I come across as a completely annoying know-it-all in the whole Olympics department. It's just that my mom has worked in the Olympic movement since before I was born, so I am just completely brainwashed. It's a disease! Wink

Another thought: I have spent way too much time on this message board today. I'm supposed to be working for crying out loud! I guess reading - and talking - comics will do that to you... Laughing
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harryhausen
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji,

You're probably right. I haven't read Parts of a Hole in a while (because, man, I can't take Quesada's art . . . ). If so, it's really weird on lots of levels. I took it as metaphorical because it seems odd that one would win an Olympic gold medal (maybe several?) and then transition into the shadowy, anonymous world of assassins. It would be more difficult, I bet.

It's a lapse, to be sure. Nice eyes. jumonji.
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