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A doubt I have about a scene in DD#79

 
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Francesco
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: A doubt I have about a scene in DD#79 Reply with quote

In DD#79, after the fight with Bullseye, DD gets sniped in the shoulder by Paladin, who was standing on a helicopter.

Paladin then tells the FBI director something like "He had no chance to avoid the bullet, cause we were too far from him".

Now I ask myself: Keeping in mind that hornhead is normally capable of dodging bullets, and can even deflect them using a nightstick/billy-club, and that his radar sense works at 360 (so the fact that he had his back turned is ininfluent), shouldn't he have noticed (and then dodged) the bullet as it was approaching?

I don't know if I'm making myself clear. IMO the fact that Paladin was far from his radar sense reach when he shot the bullet is totally unrelevant, because he would've noticed the bullet as soon as it entered in the range of his radar sense.
What do you guys think?
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rgj
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only could Matt's radar pick up the bullet as it approached, but Matt should also be able to hear it (both it's approach and it's initial firing) and "feel" the vibrations in the air as it approaches. Now, that's not to say that Matt can't be preoccupied and miss the bullet's approach because of other sensory input, but it's ridiculous that they (Paladin) knew the range of Matt's senses. Unless of course, Paladin bought the Marvel Universe Handbook. Not to mention that Ben Urich didn't write a story that the FBI tried to assasinate a man (who had just saved people from a psycho) while letting the assassin get amnesty from his crimes.

Look, Bendis did a terrible job handling Matt's senses. He had KP hire Dan "the bomb" to blow up Matt's brownstone in Born Again, and Dan "the bomb" knew how to "bypass" Matt's senses 'cause the Kingpin knew the exact details of the workings and range of Matt's senses. Ridiculous. And, then of course, there's the "Elektra spills the beans" in Murdock Papers. Even more ridiculous.

rgj
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Murdock Bell
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought Bendis wrote himself an out when Night Nurse told Elektra it didn't necessarily have to be a bullet that tore through Matt. Paladin himself never mentions a "bullet"--he only says they were too far to be detected by Matt's senses.

It could've been, say, a laser/energy rifle, or any other number of high tech "gun" weaponry.

Of course, it could also be that Matt just got through a pretty rough fight, and was sufficiently distracted.
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james castle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not about to defend Murdock Papers since I'd say that it's the weakest of all the Bendis stories. That said, I don't think people should pile on the "couldn't Matt have sensed the bullet?" train. Why? Well, because Matt and bullets don't make too much sense to begin with.

Traditionally Matt can dodge bullets because he can sense them. There's this weird "being able to sense" = "being able to dodge" thing. While I admit that that's accepted DD logic, it doesn't really make sense. Say I was standing across the room from you and I threw a basket ball at you...at the speed of a bullet. You could see the basket ball coming at you but guess what? There's no way in the world you could dodge it. It's not one's inability to see a bullet that stops one from dodging it...it's the frickin' speed.

Therefore a sort of middle ground could be to say that Matt can dodge bullets because he senses the whole thing. Like he knows how the shooter is standing, he knows the precise tilt of the barrel, he knows exactly when the shooter squeezes the trigger and it's all these things together that let him get out of the way in time. Therefore if he didn't see/hear/sense the shot he wouldn't be able to dodge the bullet.
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rgj
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to argue with Murdock Bell's point. All things he put fourth could be true. The only thing in that issue that is absurd is that Paladin, Kingpin and the FBI new the range of Matt's senses. But, yeah, even with his senses, Matt could still get shot.

And to add to what james castle said, I forgot where, but Matt's sensing (getting a heads up) on when someone is going to fire a weapon has been shown. I recall Matt being able to hear the muscles of the forearm (might have been Chichester, damn he was good with the senses) just as the bad guy is going to pull the trigger. He could also hear his heartbeat in anticipation of the deadly action. So, yeah, Matt gets tipped off before the gun is fired. But, still, as jc said, as illogical as it is, Matt being able to avoid/deflect bullets is Daredevil logic. Because even if james castle warned you just before he threw that bullet-fast basketball, you'd probably still not be able to avoid it. Yet, Daredevil has been able to trace a bullet though the air and be fast enough to deflect it with his club. The logic flaw lies with Matt being able to react/move that fast even though he can sense the bullet. Illogical and all, I still think it's cool he can do that!

rgj
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The questions then are: How much time does it take for a bullet to reach DD after it has entered the range of his radar sense? And, is that time enough for DD to move away?

The thing about the basketball thrown at the speed of a bullet makes sense, but in this specific case, the guy who shoots the basketball is standing at a distance corresponding to the radius of DD's radar sense, which is f#@%ng huge (as described in an issue of "The Widow" storyarc).
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rgj
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the Marvel Universe Handbook of the early 90's says that Matt's radar is effective within a radius of 80 feet. What I got from the Widow arc is that Matt heard the men about to fire at them and he smelled the gun powder. Bendis always seemed to confuse the radar with hearing just like the movie. But, in fact, the radar has nothing to do with the senses. In fact, DD has lost the radar but kept his senses on a couple of occasions.

I have noticed that after the movie, Marvel expanded on DD's radar--see their web site. Matt, post-movie, can actually use passive sonar (soundwaves [external noise] coming to him) as a kind of radar/proximity sense. I'm not going to argue with this--especially since Matt has "super" hearing so it would be even more magnified. As a matter of fact, one could guess, that this is the type of ability Stick had, without the super hearing that is. But, without a doubt, that was changed/tweeked after the movie.

But, yeah, the "radar" is it's own sense and according to the Handbook its range is 80 feet.

rgj
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james castle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, this is now officially just super geeky and I apologize to everyone in advance. That said, according to Yahoo Answers bullets travel between 700 and 1000 FEET PER SECOND. Assuming rgj's right about DD's senses that means he'd have 0.08 seconds from the time the bullet entered his radar to get entirely out of the way of the bullet. Which is, well, impossible.
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Solid Snake PAC
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok...I know the basics of DD sense and the general lengths that we've seen..but not the extremes..so Please put me in my place if I'm wrong. I won't try to add it into the equation of distance, reaction time, and what not. Under normal circumstances I believe DD can't dodge bullets like the one Paladin shot at him. He can sense the general direction a bullet will travel. DD in Man Without Fear hit some bullets with his club but to move an arm to hit a bullet is more possible than say a Whole Human body dodging in motion. Due to say Larks being so close to DD, He knows the direction it's going to come from 100%. Meaning that DD would have to start his arc of Motion to stop the bullet before the shot is even in mid air, going as far to say that DD has to react as Larks is pulling the trigger at the last minute the hammer on the gun slams to start the motion of the bullet. So as to not change the intended direction that Larks wanted the bullet to go. Of course Larks didn't and the last bullet killed him when DD hit it back with the club. Now that is a very basic notion of What DD can do. Now...to try to figure out HOW FAR he can sense is totally in view of the writer and those before him that made standards. and of course...how fast the human body can move...Physically DD is human in every way, so one must add physics to that logic...I'll be back...have to eat....
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Clayton Blind Love
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread of the month. No doubt! Francesco, you started a great topic.

I am of the theory that Daredevil needs a "head start" in order to dodge a bullet. I think "hearing" the gun before it actually triggers, gives Daredevil that slight edge to determine the bullet's direction. The springs and mechanisms of a gun would allow Daredevil to know that a bullet is on the way. Even so, this would require a lot of focus on Daredevil's part. A bullet shot away from range of radar and entering Daredevil's range of radar still might be avoidable. I think he might be hindered by the number of distractions that are occuring already within his radar. This might of been the reason for the hit by Paladin. Daredevil was in the middle of a fight and hindered just enough to not escape being hit. Otherwise, I'm sure Daredevil could of had a better chance at just being grazed if he wasn't so involved in action.

C.
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Solid Snake PAC
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lets not forget that Paladin was on a Helicopter...the sounds of the Helicopter alone can mask the trigger...even muffling the shot itself. In all thought I can believe that DD can get shot in that manner..
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm.
Then I guess that after all, there was actually no way he could've dodge the bullet. Especially if we consider that he had just fought Bullseye and was tired, and that Paladin could've used a particularly refined rifle.

I must say that I was a bit confused by the way Bendis handled DD's power. Bendis, in fact has (erroneously, as rgj pointed) always described the radar sense as something which derives from the combination of his heightened senses (see the intro of "what if Karen Page had lived"). In the Widow arc, Matt is able to sense Quinn, who was standing something like three or four blocks away (don't remember well, I've got to check). Now, such distance could've given him a reaction time in the range of the 1/10 of seconds, which, for a well trained man like him, could be more than enough to move away.
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