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Matt the traveler

 
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Forrest
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Matt the traveler Reply with quote

How comfortable are you with Matt leaving the country?

Personally, I wouldn't mind if he went on a big globe-trotting, soul searching journey for a couple years. Think some epic adventure, a la the first part of Batman Begins.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an interesting one. Hell's Kitchen is a big part of Matt's character, so I wouldn't like to see him away for too long. Also, I often have a problem with superheroes going to other countries and taking their superhero identity with them: if there's one way to cement the link between your civilian ID and your superhero identity, it's to both turn up in a foreign country at the same time.

That said, it's a way to keep the book fresh (and keep DD out of Civil War!) and opens up some new and unusual storytelling possibilities, so it could be a good thing, at least in the short-term.
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james castle
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for a big trip if for no other reason than for the big pay off when Matt returns to New York. Imagine if he was off globetrotting for two years (like, real life years) and then made some triumphant return to New York. That would kick ass.

I doubt it'd happen though. As far as I can tell, if you want long term, hardcore fan payoffs you best be reading DC.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
As far as I can tell, if you want long term, hardcore fan payoffs you best be reading DC.


What makes you say that?
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Forrest
Lowlife


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:
james castle wrote:
As far as I can tell, if you want long term, hardcore fan payoffs you best be reading DC.


What makes you say that?


Infinite Crisis, One Year Later, 52, pretty much everything DC versus everythin Marvel. Razz

I agree, the pay-off would be amazing. Also, this is a point in time when Matt really needs some recentering, reflection, etc., even more so than before Nocenti's Hell arc. I say take the man to Tibet, Japan, etc. for a couple years. Let him roam the earth, gain new skills, etc.
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james castle
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:
james castle wrote:
As far as I can tell, if you want long term, hardcore fan payoffs you best be reading DC.


What makes you say that?


Yeah, pretty much what Forrest said. Like, look at Infinite Crisis. Issue #1 ended with a call back to Crisis on Infinite Earths. That's crazy and it'd never happen in a Marvel book these days.

As far as I can tell Marvel has been shoving all of it's eggs in the "short term hype" basket for a while now. Like the whole "who's the mystery Avenger?" nonsense. It was such a manufactured "event" that was meant to pay off readers who were reading right now. Of course it fell flat. Marvel's just way too focused on giving people a neverending series of "jumping on points" and self contained little events that there just aren't as many long term pay offs anymore. I mean, look at the weird numbering of trades now. Captain America (as far as I can tell) is getting a new "volume 1" every time a new arc happens. Now DD is scheduled to go back to "volume 1" in the trades just cuz the creative team changed.

Marvel is so paranoid about alienating new readers that they more or less don't play to old readers anymore. Which isn't the end of the world. There's still lots of good Marvel books that hit some pretty high heights. They just aren't doing what DC seems to be doing.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, JC.

DC is commited to solid storytelling and really building up the DC universe and character depth.

Meanwhile, Marvel is pulling shock-and-awe events like Civil War #2, Avengers Disassembled, House of M, etc. These stories just appear out of nowhere, while DC stories like Infinite Crisis and very, very carefully planned out, increase the depth of the universe, etc.

A typical Marvel future for Matt would be playing off his outing as a Shield conspiracy, etc. and getting him back in law/NYC ASAP, just to set the bar back to the beginning for the next big isolated event. This is shallow storytelling and treats the readers' like goldfish with short term memories looking for the next 'jump-on' point or next volume. Stephan, if you're listening, that's exactly why I oppose a quick return of Matt to law, putting the cat back in the bag, etc.

I want to see Matt treated the way Hal Jordan was treated after his death. Matt should not return to the status quo of practicing law (as Matt Murdock) in NYC any time soon. Dare I say this should not happen for years.
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james castle
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:

Meanwhile, Marvel is pulling shock-and-awe events like Civil War #2, Avengers Disassembled, House of M, etc. These stories just appear out of nowhere, while DC stories like Infinite Crisis and very, very carefully planned out, increase the depth of the universe, etc.


At this point it's just me and Forrest agreeing with each other but one thing I forgot to mention is how Marvel is also seemingly committed to making ludicris claims with regard to their events in an effort keep up with DC. Now, I haven't been keeping up with DC but my understanding is that Identity Crisis really did lead into Countdown to Infinite Crisis which led (not surprisingly) into Infinite Crisis which has now led into 52.

Marvel has tried to mimic this by having people (like Joey Q and Bendis) drop weird lines about how the events in Civil War have grown out of Avengers Disassembles and House of M. Does anyone actually believe this? How are Disassembled, House of M and Civil War even related (other than the fact that...what? they all concern the same characters?). Do they really expect us to believe that just because Disassembled and House of M used the same cheap trick ("oh crap, Scarlette Witch did it") they're somehow related? Civil War seems even worse. They're like "well there was this random event that caused the problems of the X-Men to be transfered to all super heros generally" (this is my understanding of Civil War). How is that related to House of M?

Plus, Marvel's MAX line is such a ridiculous useless shadow of Vertigo that it makes me want to cry.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:

At this point it's just me and Forrest agreeing with each other [. . .]


Yep. Very Happy

Good points. (And you are correct that the recent DC events mentioned very closely tie into one another, which is a little surprising to me considering that Identity Crisis and 52 also make such great stand alone stories.)

Keeping it to DD, I am still sore about the DeMatteis (and to a much lesser extent, Kesel) treatment of Chichester's DD. However, others point out that Chichester was really alienating readers, and with stories like Tree of Knowledge, Sir, etc., I can understand that. (He was trying too hard...)

I don't want to see the same treatment with the current DD. Now, there could not possibly be any greater difference in my opinion of DeMatteis and Brubaker, so I think that DD is in good hands, now. Still, some of this lies in the hands of Marvel editors, etc. I really don't want to see them mess with Matt for the sake of a big event (e.g. like Peter Parker goes through ~twice per year) or a hasty return to the status quo (to isolate the stories for marketing reasons).

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE good storytelling with extreme results. (E.g. I've said before that Marvel could kill Kingpin, Matt could leave the U.S. for years, etc.) The key is good storytelling. With that, any story can be told. (E.g. As Bendis ~proved in DD, the basic event of Civil War #2 could be told very well, over a number of years. Or, as Marvel/Millar proved with Civil War #2, the events of Bendis's DD can be thrown together for the sake of a single shock value summer mini...)

We all love Born Again. Imagine if a lesser writer had done the same things to Matt and Karen. ...Well, I think some of us have the answer to that in Guardian Devil. Razz

In summary, I want to see Bruaker rock this boat! I don't care how much he messes up Matt's life or the basic elements of the book, as long as it is done well.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I like it when stories are self contained, I don't want to have to read a story from 20 years ago or even a completely different mini series to understand the current one (having to read Identity Crisis from 2 years ago to understand Infinite Crisis) I don't want have to spend a lot money getting all these mini series and tie-ins just to understand a story.

Last edited by The Overlord on Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't agree with JC and Forrest here. Infinite Crisis was more of a flop than DC cares to admit, and one which gave the illusion of change but actually changed very little. I do think Marvel caters for the longtime fan at the same time as trying to keep new readers happy. I just think that they don't rely on years of history and old stories in order to make their current output relevant.

I don't want to get into a "Marvel vs. DC" thing here because I think we're above that.
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james castle
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:
Personally i like it when stories are self contained, I don't want to have to read astory from 20 years ago or even a completely different mini series to understand the current one (having to read Identity Crisis from 2 years ago to understand Infinite Crisis) I don't want have to spend a lot money getting all these mini series and tie-ins just to understand a story.


And that, my friend, is what makes you the perfect Marvel reader. Marvel's not insane. It's not like they've taken this short-term, hopping on point virtually everywhere approach because they don't like making money. They know that there's lots of people out there (like yourself) who can't be bothered following a comic for a long time. Some people want thrills and spills that span...I dunno....six months? In fact, lots of people want that and that's what Marvel provides.

The problem is that there's something very special that happens when you follow a comic for a long time. An example for me was Preacher. I followed that sucker almost from the beginning and it was the fact that it was part of my life for so long that made the end/whole story that much more important to me.

Dave Wallace wrote:

I can't agree with JC and Forrest here. Infinite Crisis was more of a flop than DC cares to admit, and one which gave the illusion of change but actually changed very little. I do think Marvel caters for the longtime fan at the same time as trying to keep new readers happy. I just think that they don't rely on years of history and old stories in order to make their current output relevant.


Errrr. Really? I don't think I've ever heard anyone call Infinite Crisis a "flop". I think you're a little by yourself there. Plus, you can't exactly slag DC for not changing enough in the face of Marvel's silly little songs and dances. "No More Mutants"? Yeah, no more lame mutants no one knows or cares about.

Dave Wallace wrote:

I don't want to get into a "Marvel vs. DC" thing here because I think we're above that.


Well, I'm not above anything. That said, I don't think it's a Marvel vs. DC thing. Like I think it's gotten to the point where they're just doing different things. It's comparing apples and oranges. Marvel is about the short term and the popular and the following of fads right now while DC has a little bit more of a long term thing going on. It's like the gay character thing. Marvel was all about "well, we have to feel out the current political climate and see if a gay character would be accepted" and DC was like "yeah, one of our new characters is gay". It's just a different approach that plays to different tastes.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:
[Infinite Crisis] gave the illusion of change but actually changed very little.


I'll agree with that.

Dave Wallace wrote:
I don't want to get into a "Marvel vs. DC" thing here because I think we're above that.


I don't want to get into an discussion of which company is better, even though that's essentially what I did. Razz

Both companies are very different and they may not be a bad things because readers are very different. Of course many readers, like myself, have clear preferences toward either Marvel or DC and I think this thread has addressed one of the biggest, if not the biggest difference between DC and Marvel. I think it's interesting to examine how these companies are different, but you're right, I don't want to get into feud over which company is better because they appear to be apples and oranges.

That said, it is interesting to think how the future of DD might be different if it was a DC book. I think Bendis really pushed the envelope on what a Marvel book, or even a mainstream (Marvel/DC) big name superhero comic is allowed to do. I think that has freed up Brubaker to do essentially whatever he wants with DD.
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