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james castle Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 1999 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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rgj wrote: | jc wrote: | MATT did something and ELEKTRA became good. No free will there. |
Well, I don't think the purging comment had anything to do with what direction Elektra eventually took. Elektra could have easily still done evil things after she was resurrected. She chose to climb the mountain, a mountain where she sought Stick and a noble cause long ago. She finished the climb that she had failed the first time. In my eyes, Elektra CHOSE to not contiune her ways once she had a second chance. I don't see it as she became "good" cause Matt helped bring her back. But, I see where you are coming from if you chose to believe that she became "good" because Matt "did something." I just don't interpret it that way.
And, yeah, it's been a while since I read FFG. And, you are right about the "reinfecting." Still think it's crap that it happened that way too. Again, since I don't think she became "good" because of Matt's "laying hands", I obviouly still think it's crazy that she would be "reinfected." But, whatever. I will agree with you with one point you made. The Elektra before reinfection was written well. The reinfecting idea sucked. And, everyting that came after, the dancing, the having a baby with Wolverine and yeah, even Rucka's stuff sucked eggs. Again, Marvel isn't writing Elektra. Just some crappy knock off.
rgj |
Stone says something like "Murdock purified her". Comon. _________________ JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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rgj Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 1580 Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, but what the hell does that mean? Did Miller even know? Look, Chichester and you think she was possessed and that comment meant she was exorcised. But, that's not definitive. Miller and Jansen went nuts with the mist thing (you know, when the Hand guys die a mist would pour out of them), if Miller was saying she was possessed why didn't they show some type of mist leaving her when Matt did his thing? Stick said something about life and death being energy that you moved back and fourth. The comment about being clean coud be about that. But, whatever. The fact remains that today's Elektra sucks. And, I could care less about reading a mini-series with her in it.
rgj |
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Ratchet Flying Blind
Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 22
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Here's what happened to Elektra at her resurrection: The Hand wanted to resurrect her, and at the same time, make her a dark servant totally in their thrall. The process was interrupted. Then Matt continued the resurrection--and inadvertently cleansed Elektra of the Hand's influence.
Matt didn't wash away any evil that might have existed prior to the Hand's ceremony. You can't erase the past, and that's one of the themes in the graphic novel Elektra Lives Again.
Yeah, people keep saying Elektra is still running around out there. Too bad it's not her. |
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rgj Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 1580 Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Holy crap! Ratchet is absolutely 100% right! I broke out the Visionaries, truth be told I haven't read TES for quite some time. In fact, I think I read FFG more recently than TES, go figure. But, anyway, Ratchet is right, the Hand had started the ritual. And, they were "pouring their souls, flesh and blood" into her. They were going to revive her and make her their servent, WITHOUT CHOICE. And, that is what Matt cleansed. The poison they were pouring into her empty vessel. The purging had nothing to do with Elektra's past, and willing transgressions. When Stone saw she was clean he gave up his life essence to revive her. That is what Miller wrote. I look forward to rereading this whole thing again when the Miller Omnibus comes out!
rgj
p.s. Today's "Elektra" sucks eggs. |
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Francesco Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 1307
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Right, right, but please, someone tell him that he's cool when he uses the expression "xxxx sucks eggs" otherwise he won't stop. |
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james castle Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 1999 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Francesco wrote: | Right, right, but please, someone tell him that he's cool when he uses the expression "xxxx sucks eggs" otherwise he won't stop. |
Francesco sucks eggs.
Zing! _________________ JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Dimetre Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 1366 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: Elektra |
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I actually enjoyed Rucka's work in the Elektra series, when she wasn't getting any assignments, and the relatives of her victims forced her to reevaluate her ways. Unfortunately whoever was editing the book allowed Rucka's direction to be completely abandoned when Rodi took over, and she reverted back to simply being a cold-blooded assassin.
In my humble opinion, Miller's Elektra Saga is an undeniable high-point in comics history. I love going back and rereading it over and over again. In contrast, Fall From Grace sits in a box deep in my closet. I read it once, and don't care to read it again. |
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james castle Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 1999 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Elektra |
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Dimetre wrote: | In my humble opinion, Miller's Elektra Saga is an undeniable high-point in comics history. I love going back and rereading it over and over again. In contrast, Fall From Grace sits in a box deep in my closet. I read it once, and don't care to read it again. |
Ah, really? I mean, yeah, yeah it's important Daredevil lore and, at the end of the day it's better than FFG (or at the very least a lot more readable) and, yes, I actually liked it a lot but it's nowhere near a "high-point in comics history". Why? Well, first off the ninjas. I like ninjas as much as the next guy but there's no denying that they bring with them a certain amount of cheese to the table. A layer of cheese that covers the whole Saga in my opinion. Plus, the whole thing just reeks of male adolecent power fantasy. The hot, ninja ex-girl friend (who is powerful but still girly and vulnerable)? I mean comon.
Between the cheesiness of it all and the cliches that pop up right left and centre the Saga is hardly ground breaking.
Good DD story for sure but it's not a high water mark with regard to comics in general. _________________ JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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rgj Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 1580 Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, james, are you hating on the ninjas (well, okay, you say you like them like the next guy)!?
Seriously, the Hand are some of the coolest DD villains of all time. Gee, if you think they were "cheese," just what the heck are just about the rest of DD's villains? Or any villain in a costume? Like the mob, the ninjas brought a gritty enemy to DD. Heck, look at Chichester's use of the Hand (and Hydra too), totally cool stuff.
Agian, I'm not saying TES was the end all, but TES was a great story, IMO. And, it put DD back on the monthly map.
rgj |
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james castle Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 1999 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Don't get me wrong, I like the Hand (as much as the next guy). And, yeah, Chichester really did some cool stuff with them. Heck, Miller did some really cool stuff with them. But, put in context (i.e. the 80s) you sort of have to wonder whether or not stuffing ninjas into the world of Daredevil was entirely necessary. Especially given that Miller (and Claremont) were also busy stuffing ninja's into Wolverine's life at the same time. The 80s were the time of Stormshadow and Snakeeyes and American Ninja, etc.. You couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting some ninja related pop culture thing. A pop culture thing that was usually aimed at teen boys. If there are two things teen boys love it's ninjas and half naked ladies who are ninjas and secretly love them. TES is full to the brim with both.
Of course, having been a teen boy myself at some point, I love ninjas. So I'm not trying to slame TES as bad or anything (I like it, I really like it) but I'm just saying it wasn't all that groundbreaking really.
One last thing is that one of the main differences between Born Again and TES is that Born Again was about Kingpin (the mob) and TES was about the Hand (ninjas). Ninjas, insofar as they don't really exist do not add the same amount of real world grit as the mob does. They just don't. _________________ JC
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Dimetre Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 1366 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:06 am Post subject: Elektra saga |
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What made the Elektra Saga really work for me wasn't the fact that she was a half naked ninja chick. It's the fact that she and Matt had a history. It really worked on an emotional level. Her feelings for Matt were something she couldn't deny, but she wouldn't let them interfere with the task at hand. Miller showed this brilliantly.
It was a fantastic emotional conflict for Matt. She was someone he loved more than anything, and he desperately wanted to believe that she still existed as that woman. As she existed now was in opposition to everything he stood for. He needs to stop her, but he can't deny his love for her.
It's not her ninja skills, her prowess for killing or her wardrobe. It's the fantastic internal conflict she triggers in Matt and Matt triggers in her.
In my opinion, Rucka is the only writer other than Miller who has done anything decent with her, and I'm not talking about the Ultimate version, which left me underwhelmed. |
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