Daredevil Message Board

[harryhausen]

Is Matt a cad?

I know I’m courting controversy here, but I can’t help but notice that the “womanizer” tag might legitimately be applied to our man Murdock. Sure, he’s had a lot of ladyfriends (not like Tony Stark or anything, of course . . .), but there are a few incidents that stick out to me that are pretty questionable:

When Elektra makes the scene and Matt’s dating Heather, he has a moment there with Elektra where he seems to be ready to forget Heather altogether. Now this one I don’t mind so much because a) Elektra’s his lost love, etc., and b) I don’t like Heather Glenn at all – never been so happy to see a character go (cold of me, I know – poor Heather), but . . .

What’s up with Matt just straight cheating on Karen (KAREN PAGE!) with Typhoid Mary?!? I know, Mary’s powers and what-not, but that’s still uber-cold. He’s all in the park with her and kissing her and saying, “Someone’s gonna get hurt! O, what to do?” all the time. Makes me mad. Sure, Karen sold your secret identity for junk and then whored her way to NYC, but she’s the love of your life, Matt – come on! And she’s rocking the storefront with you, to boot.

Maybe everyone’s fears about Milla being killed by the Gladiator aren’t going to be realized, Matt might just meet someone else, run with both of them for a time, and dump her. Then, Milla could either hang herself or get killed by Bullseye – her choice.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the character, but what do you folks make of this? More interesting – to me – than the lawyer/justice debate, as this seems to be a more basic moral failing, still.

[rgj]

Anyone who thinks Matt is a womanizer doesn't know this character at all. Yes, that means Kevin Smith is an idiot. Seriously, how many women has Matt had during the entire run. I'm guessing some of us geeks on the board managed a higher number. And, we're geeks. Heck, wouldn't the Black Widow be considred more of a "manizer" than Matt a womanizer?? So, whatever.

Read the comic and you'll know the answer.


rgj

p.s. Matt was under Typhoid Mary's influence. And, he didn't "have" her until Last Rites, a move by Matt that took Typhoid's "hold" over him, reducing her to the Mary persona. So again, whaterver.

[james castle]

At first I thought this was going to be another rehash of Smith's pathetic "Matt Murdock is a ladies man" crap (Smith is a hack. a hacky, hack, hack, hack. he's the boy band, the Fall Out Boy of the movie business. grow up kids) and I was ready to come in swinging. Matt is not a ladies man. There's a list of women he's been linked to but the same is true of virtually every main character who isn't married who's been around since the 60s. The whole "Matt's a man whore" nonsense was just another Smith sound bite ("oh! he's talking about sex....how edgey!").

Happily though, harry has a point. I don't think the Elektra/Heather thing holds much water but I really remember being bothered by the Karen/Mary thing. In my opinion Nocenti did an amazing job with it. I didn't really appreciate it at the time (I was like 10) but now that I'm older I'm a bit in awe of how she balanced the blame/no blame. Like harry says there was a feeling that it wasn't entirely Matt's fault. At the same time Nocenti doesn't let him off the hook entirely.

As for what it means with regard to Matt's character I dunno. I don't think it actually has all that much of a long term effect. I think it was more Nocenti injecting some realism into Matt's life. I love Nocenti.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[rgj]

jc, even if you want to say that Matt was not necessarily under Mary's spell, you also have to put things in context. Matt had recently reunited with Karen after Born Again. Now, Matt forgives her, and still loves her. But, you can't tell me there aren't residual effects of the trama and betrayl Matt experienced. Perhaps, Mary just amplified some of these doubts. But, in the end Matt doesn't even have a physical relationship with Mary (at least not until Last Rites, where his motives are far from womanizing), which is the trademark and goal of a "womanizer."

rgj

[Forrest]

[james castle]

[james castle]

[quote="Forrest"]

[harryhausen]

Yeah, I hear what everyone’s saying. I shouldn’t have said “womanizer” – I mean more to explore the concept of what, on some level, must be seen as infidelity, I guess. The Elektra/Heather Glenn thing is of no great consequence, but the Mary/Karen Page is really weird, to me.

For the record, I love Nocenti (well, except ‘Baby Boom’ – ha!) and Miller, think Bendis is OK – even if he’s a little talky – but I haven’t ever read Smith (or seen many of his movies). Point is, I didn’t realize I was walking into some post-Smith fallout or that he had thusly labeled Murdock.

My dig at Tony Stark (who I really like, yes still . . . ) sticks – he’s a womanizer, for sure. Lady after lady as only a billionaire industrialist can roll. Plus, his “arrangement” with Emma Frost and his fling with She-Hulk (holy cow!) reek of vacuous physical gratification. I certainly don’t think Matt is like that. I’m mostly just surprised to see him have a lapse like that with Karen.

So, no, Matt’s not rolling in the hay with tons of chicks, it’s not about numbers. Plus, he seems to really care for all the ladies in his life – a serial monogamist with good intentions. [Though, maybe he should have followed Foggy’s advice and blown Milla off – I mean, at least, after their first few dates. For her sake.] He’s a man in love and he won’t be daunted by this superheroing.

Also, for my money, he should have stuck with Natasha – she’s the coolest of all (even if I haven’t read all the SF issues). They were a team. Oh, and that reminds me, during the Miller run he’s technically dating Heather Glenn, I guess (Rico be damned); hanging out a lot with Natasha (in that catsuit!) and rescuing her from Bullseye with a passion exceeding the norm, perhaps; and then putting his hand on Elektra’s shoulder in a meaningful way. That’s sort of running three ladies at the same time, eh? [that “eh” is for you Canadians, incidentally]

Lastly, I’m shocked about the Karen thing, but don’t mistake my bringing this up for disapproval, necessarily. I think Heather Glenn was silly, Natasha’s the cat’s pajamas, and Elektra was his first love – so I’m with Matt in his “struggle.” Remember, I said I like Tony Stark!

[harryhausen]

Oh yeah, Natahsa is definitely a "manizer" - more power to her!

[rgj]

[Neilan]

I wouldn't categorize Matt as a womanizer, despite the cracks that Foggy's always making about Matt's female acquaintances. He doesn't always treat his lovers well, which may be a function of being abandoned by his mother. If I were him, I'd go for Natasha, first because she's Wow! and second because she can hold her own in battle. However, I appreciate the relationship that they've had for awhile now, where they're always ready to support each other, sort of like a divorced couple who still love and help each other, but have gone their separate ways, romantically.
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It's never too late to have a happy childhood!

[Gloria]

[Gloria]

Incidentally, in another board, smoeone just brought a similar question about Matt and the women in his life.

A poster signing "Dr. Strange" stated that The Spirit has had an even greater list of female acquaintances, (with varied degrees of romantic and/or erotic involvement) and he's spot-on right! ... In fact, I have noticed that Between Hell's Kitchen hero and Will Esiner's masked detective there are some curious coincidences (women-wise)

(now I'm quoting from my own answer there -sorry): "The Spirit (truly) had even more women around him, though the most featured were Ellen Dollan (the regular girlfriend, not unlike Karen), Satin (the independent adventurer, à la Black Widow), Sand Saref (the first love who becomes a criminal, à la Elektra) or P'Gell (um, I can't think of a good equivalent, but maybe Typhoid Mary criss-crossed with the Marx Brothers)".


Much of Miller's early work in DD is quite reminiscent of Eisner's: nihil novum sub solem, indeed?
Gloria
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

[Gloria]

[Stanley]

I pretty much agree with everyone on this--he's not a ladies man.

He's a man who enjoys the ladies. There's a difference.

Matt doesn't go bed-hopping around town, but he ~is~ a self-aware man who knows he looks good. (Those muscles aren't JUST for spandex, I'm sure--gotta be for the ladies.) He doesn't sleep with easy chicks; instead, he tries to have real relationships every time out. That doesn't make you a ladies man, that makes you a serial monogamist (as said before). Ladies men can't function without a woman on the arm ALL the time. I think it's been shown that Matt doesn't mind being alone. (He'd rather not be, of course. And he's NOT a "loner", so let's not start that again.)

Seriously, being smooth and dashing when romancing a girl is not being a player, it's doing what you're supposed to do. Just because Matt knows what he's doing every step of the way doesn't mean it's hollow.

Infidelity is pretty easy to look down at and looks black and white until you're faced with the temptation yourself. "Oh no, not me"...yeah, you too. Just wait. I've never cheated, but it's been close--and she didn't even have any superpowers (just a really really nice body). So Matt's human. I give him the pass--although it is tragic he couldn't just stay with Karen for the rest of their lives and have bundles of kids, that doesn't sell comics.

And I haven't had 6 or so decent relationships, but I've had my share of run-ins...I refuse to believe that makes one a man-whore. I'm not even thirty yet, but this line of thinking would make me out to be a slut.

Although I am pretty easy after a few drinks.