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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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 Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: Daredevil Villain team ups |
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Many heroes have a group of villains that they encounter on a semi regular basis, ex: Spider-Man fights the Sinister Six, Flash fights the Rogues, the X-Men fight the Brotherhood, the Avengers fight the Masters of Evil, The Justice League fights the Injustice Gang, etc.
With DD there were only two major villain team ups in his 40 hears of history, the Emissaries of Evil in DD Annual 1 and DD Revenge Squad in the Typhoid Mary arc in the 80s.
Can super villain team ups work in DD comics? Would a team of villains have a name like the "Emissaries of Evil" or would they not bother having an official name? If it is a good idea, who would be on this team? |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | With DD there were only two major villain team ups in his 40 hears of history, the Emissaries of Evil in DD Annual 1 and DD Revenge Squad in the Typhoid Mary arc in the 80s.
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Don't forget The Enforcers and the Unholy Three
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | With DD there were only two major villain team ups in his 40 hears of history, the Emissaries of Evil in DD Annual 1 and DD Revenge Squad in the Typhoid Mary arc in the 80s.
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Don't forget The Enforcers and the Unholy Three |
Not really what I was getting at. I was thinking more of independent villains who team to create an epic threat (like the Sinister Six), not villains who are always in teams to be a moderate threat to the character. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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First, you say in that other topic that villains should stop having the objective of destroying Daredevil.
Now you come here and propose that DD villains should team up against him, a la emissaries of evil or DD revenge squad (both teams assembled with the purpose of destroying Daredevil).
Make up your mind.
(also, it's an idea that stinks of "bronze age Marvel", and reeks of "DD is more or less a Spidey clone", not to mention the fact that it would be hard to implement in modern storytelling) |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Very bronze age, indeed. When was the last time the X-Men fought the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants? A very long time indeed.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | First, you say in that other topic that villains should stop having the objective of destroying Daredevil.
Now you come here and propose that DD villains should team up against him, a la emissaries of evil or DD revenge squad (both teams assembled with the purpose of destroying Daredevil).
Make up your mind.
(also, it's an idea that stinks of "bronze age Marvel", and reeks of "DD is more or less a Spidey clone", not to mention the fact that it would be hard to implement in modern storytelling) |
Well villains would still try to kill DD now and again, I'm just sick of these complex schemes to destroy DD's drive DD insane. That doesn't mean he can't get jumped by a villian now and again, while on patrol, every hero has to deal with that, however not every hero has to deal with complex schemes to destroy their sanity.
Besides villains can team for objectives besides killing DD. How can say its a Spidey rip off when almost every hero has faced against a villain team at one time or another, some in inv ery recent times. Variety is the spice of life, look at Spider-man, some villains have a persoanl grudge against him, like Gobby, while others are just interested in wealth and power, like Doc Ock and Shocker.
| james castle wrote: | | Very bronze age, indeed. When was the last time the X-Men fought the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants? A very long time indeed. |
If its such a bronze age idea,why did we see that massive villain team up in the last DC crossover?
Besides in the latest arc, the X-Men are fighting the Marauders. Flash fights the Rogues all the time. Spidey deals with "Sinister" teams all the time, etc.
Okay what about instead of an offical team up, if a bunch of villains are causing problems at once in Hell's Kitchen, is that more acceptable? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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That would be indeed more acceptable but, as I said, hard to implement in modern storytelling, especially for what concerns DD storytelling.
| Quote: | | Besides in the latest arc, the X-Men are fighting the Marauders. Flash fights the Rogues all the time. Spidey deals with "Sinister" teams all the time, etc. |
And so what? Daredevil is no X-men, no Spidey, no Flash, and doesn't need to imitate any of them just for the hell of it. He has nothing to borrow or begging from other titles. His book has its kind of pace, storytelling, stories, mood. And it has nothing to envy to any other book.
| Quote: | | look at Spider-man, some villains have a persoanl grudge against him, like Gobby, while others are just interested in wealth and power, like Doc Ock and Shocker. |
Why do I f'n have to look at spider-man? He's a different character, meant to have different situations.
| Quote: | | If its such a bronze age idea,why did we see that massive villain team up in the last DC crossover? |
Because it's a crossover. Part of a large event, involving many heroes and, consequently, many villains. The idea of rogues ganging up against the hero is extremely lame (-> bronze age). |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | That would be indeed more acceptable but, as I said, hard to implement in modern storytelling, especially for what concerns DD storytelling. |
Well Batman is similar to DD in tone (not the same, but similar) and there have been a few times where Batman had to deal with a bunch of villains at once, there were all the villains escaping at once in Knightfall and a villain team up in Dark Victory. Was Dark victory lame?
| Quote: | | Besides in the latest arc, the X-Men are fighting the Marauders. Flash fights the Rogues all the time. Spidey deals with "Sinister" teams all the time, etc. |
| Francesco wrote: |
And so what? Daredevil is no X-men, no Spidey, no Flash, and doesn't need to imitate any of them just for the hell of it. He has nothing to borrow or begging from other titles. His book has its kind of pace, storytelling, stories, mood. And it has nothing to envy to any other book. |
Besides was it lame when Nocenti had a villain team up during her run? People can copy Miller, but copying concepts from everyone from Stan Lee to Ann Nocenti is lame? Good stories are timeless, there still stories from Marvel's Silver age that are great to this day. Besides forgetting a villain team up for a sec, if a bunch of villains escaped from prison and starting causing trouble in Hell's Kitchen at the same time, would that really be that illogical for a comic book world?
| Francesco wrote: |
| Quote: | | look at Spider-man, some villains have a persoanl grudge against him, like Gobby, while others are just interested in wealth and power, like Doc Ock and Shocker. |
Why do I f'n have to look at spider-man? He's a different character, meant to have different situations. |
I'm using that as an example of a different villains having different motives, which is what makes a rogues gallery interesting. Clearly Mr. Fear, Kingpin and Bullseye have a personal grudge against DD, but others like Purple Man and Mr. Hyde can just be general trouble makers. There is no reason why every villain has to have the same motive.
| Quote: | | If its such a bronze age idea,why did we see that massive villain team up in the last DC crossover? |
| Francesco wrote: |
Because it's a crossover. Part of a large event, involving many heroes and, consequently, many villains. The idea of rogues ganging up against the hero is extremely lame (-> bronze age). |
So can you tell me why Brubaker's recent X-men storyline or the Rogue wars are lame? I'm just saying if you think the concept is lame, then why don't you read Geoff Johns Rogues War and tell me why that is lame. You can argue the concept doesn't work for DD, that's fine, that's why I asked the question. But if are going to tell the concept is lame, then why it is being done well in other books? Can give a reason why it fails as concept elsewhere? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Well Batman is similar to DD in tone (not the same, but similar) and there have been a few times where Batman had to deal with a bunch of villains at once, there were all the villains escaping at once in Knightfall and a villain team up in Dark Victory. Was Dark victory lame?
Besides was it lame when Nocenti had a villain team up during her run? People can copy Miller, but copying concepts from everyone from Stan Lee to Ann Nocenti is lame? Good stories are timeless, there still stories from Marvel's Silver age that are great to this day. Besides forgetting a villain team up for a sec, if a bunch of villains escaped from prison and starting causing trouble in Hell's Kitchen at the same time, would that really be that illogical for a comic book world?
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Those weren't lame because they were well written. They were stories with a purpose (ah, and Nocenti and Lee had the villains gathered to ruin Daredevil, which you said is not good). There was planning, they had a meaning.
Not just like waking up a day and saying "Hey, let's have DD fight a bunch of villains Spidey has done it and it was cool".
| Quote: | | So can you tell me why Brubaker's recent X-men storyline or the Rogue wars are lame? |
With the X-men it is a different story, and I think there's no need to explain why.
| Quote: | | I'm just saying if you think the concept is lame, then why don't you read Geoff Johns Rogues War and tell me why that is lame. You can argue the concept doesn't work for DD, that's fine, that's why I asked the question. But if are going to tell the concept is lame, then why it is being done well in other books? Can give a reason why it fails as concept elsewhere? |
I don't know how it works elsewhere, there may be peculiar reasons for why it works. With DD it would be just a big brawl that would diminish the importance both of DD as a crimefighter (because that would reduce him to a cartoonish parody of himself) and of the villains involved (watch as the baddies united fight the hero! w00t!).
I don't want that. There are better ways to write good stories without having to resort to pre-made solutions like "hey, let's have him fight a bunch of villains". |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: |
| Quote: | | So can you tell me why Brubaker's recent X-men storyline or the Rogue wars are lame? |
With the X-men it is a different story, and I think there's no need to explain why.
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Also, the Marauders story is in X-Men, not Uncanny. Bru didn't write it. He wrote something about the X-Men going to space. Nice work on going off half cocked again though.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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quote="Francesco"] | Quote: | Well Batman is similar to DD in tone (not the same, but similar) and there have been a few times where Batman had to deal with a bunch of villains at once, there were all the villains escaping at once in Knightfall and a villain team up in Dark Victory. Was Dark victory lame?
Besides was it lame when Nocenti had a villain team up during her run? People can copy Miller, but copying concepts from everyone from Stan Lee to Ann Nocenti is lame? Good stories are timeless, there still stories from Marvel's Silver age that are great to this day. Besides forgetting a villain team up for a sec, if a bunch of villains escaped from prison and starting causing trouble in Hell's Kitchen at the same time, would that really be that illogical for a comic book world?
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| Francesco wrote: |
Those weren't lame because they were well written. They were stories with a purpose (ah, and Nocenti and Lee had the villains gathered to ruin Daredevil, which you said is not good). There was planning, they had a meaning.
Not just like waking up a day and saying "Hey, let's have DD fight a bunch of villains Spidey has done it and it was cool". |
Look at what you just said "Those weren't lame because they were well written." It all depends on the writing, it can be poorly written or can be well written. Y?our not comic book writer and I'm writer, but if the writer really wanted to make it work would work, if he didn't wouldn't. But it could be done, you could argue that shouldn't be done, but it could done. I just posted this discuss this concept, just have some fun speculation and you and james are getting snippy about it. What I bring up topic you don't like and that gets your ire up? Siege of the avengers Mansion was a villain team up story and that was a damn good story.
| Francesco wrote: |
| Quote: | | I'm just saying if you think the concept is lame, then why don't you read Geoff Johns Rogues War and tell me why that is lame. You can argue the concept doesn't work for DD, that's fine, that's why I asked the question. But if are going to tell the concept is lame, then why it is being done well in other books? Can give a reason why it fails as concept elsewhere? |
I don't know how it works elsewhere, there may be peculiar reasons for why it works. With DD it would be just a big brawl that would diminish the importance both of DD as a crimefighter (because that would reduce him to a cartoonish parody of himself) and of the villains involved (watch as the baddies united fight the hero! w00t!).
I don't want that. There are better ways to write good stories without having to resort to pre-made solutions like "hey, let's have him fight a bunch of villains". |
Again it all depends on the writing, it could be cartoonish or if done well it could be more engaging and better developed then just a brawl. But to say the concept of villain team ups are dated themselves is incorrect one only need to read the Johns run on Flash.
| james castle wrote: | | Francesco wrote: |
| Quote: | | So can you tell me why Brubaker's recent X-men storyline or the Rogue wars are lame? |
With the X-men it is a different story, and I think there's no need to explain why.
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Also, the Marauders story is in X-Men, not Uncanny. Bru didn't write it. He wrote something about the X-Men going to space. Nice work on going off half cocked again though. |
Ah sorry, how could I commit such a sin. Clearly I need to be put in prison for this horrible offense. How dare I make such a mistake. 
Messiah Complex will be affecting all X-men titles, which means Brubkaer will be using the Marauders. |
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user747
Flying Blind
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:49 am Post subject: |
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I guess that's a "no" to your idea Overlord 
I have no idea who'll make a good supervillian team up along the lines of the Sinister Six (ie. a teamup exist solely to kill Spidey) for Daredevil. I'm stumped 
Though I'll vouch that the Owl should be the leader of such a group. Time for some restoration of diginity for him. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Too bad the Owl has been killed just recently.
| Quote: | | I just posted this discuss this concept, just have some fun speculation and you and james are getting snippy about it. |
What the... a bit off topic but I'm getting sick of it. I disagree with Castle, he associates me with the Overlord. I disagree with you, you associate me with Castle. Bah.
The siege of avengers mansion! Avengers Mansion. The avengers. A group of superheroes. How unusual for a group of supervillains to go up against a group of superheroes!
Anyway, whatever you say. DD should have villains team up because other titles have had such team ups in the past, even though they are very different titles from DD.
I just pray that the current and subsequent writers drop this perverted mechanism of yours. The one of coming up with an idea first, falling in love with it, and then finding ways to make it plausible (with high risk of failure). |
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user747
Flying Blind
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Francesco"]Too bad the Owl has been killed just recently.
[quote]
What? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Ah he'll be back soon enough.  You can't keep a good man-owl-mobster down. That also goes for mutants and Captain America (though I hope he doesn't, but he will...) !
Oh there was a "Fellowship of Fear" in Essential DD vol 1. (they lost because Mr. Fear forgot his fear gun at home ) |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| I doubt they'll bring him back. He's not considered as important as Captain America or any of those mutants that have been resurrected. |
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