Daredevil Message Board

[harryhausen]

Do you think Daredevil had decided to kill Bullseye when he dropped him (to stop his killing, etc.) or was he left with no choice when Bullseye brandished the sai?

[jumonji]

I voted yes, but it's really not as simple as that. Did he specifically intend to kill him? Probably not. Did he realize that dropping him might have resulted in a deadly fall? Yes. What this means, in essence, is that he didn't demonstrate his usual level of restraint, and acted in a way that could very well have killed Bullseye. It nearly did.

Speaking of DD/Bullseye, I LOVE the Roulette issue (#191). I know some people think it makes DD come across as a sadistic psycho, but it's a great story.
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The Other Murdock Papers

[Francesco]

[Dimetre]

[jumonji]

[Clayton Blind Love]

The question is only blurred by the fact that Daredevil, being quite strong and skilled, has more options available in this scenario as opposed to the common man. The fact that he says, "You'll kill no one ever again," pretty much seals the intent to kill.

Yes.

And I love it. This is something that makes him #1 in my book over Batman.

C.
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Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me

[rgj]

I think there are two distinct questions here.

1) Did he know that his actions (letting Bulls go) could lead to Bulls death?

2) Was there murder in his heart?

The only thing that blurs the situation is self defense. "Awkward" position or not, it is clear (they gave it it's own panel for heaven's sake) that Bulls is arching the sai and is going to throw it at Matt. Awkward position? He's Bullseye for heaven's sake.

The close up of the sai is a dead giveaway that, ultimately, it IS self defense. And, Matt would have justified it as so. I have no doubt that Matt would NOT have dropped Bullseye had the sai not been in play. Just as Matt ultimatley pulls Bulls from the subway and just as, in the end, Matt's gun has no bullets.

Still, there is no doubt that Matt KNEW his action could have led to Bullseye's death. So, yeah, he did take that step. Just as he took it in Born Again when he willingly killed the helicopter pilot. So the answer to question #1 is yes. As for #2. Was there murder in his heart. Let's put it this way, Matt's hypersenses knew what the fall did to Bullseye. He knew that for Bullseye to be dead, he would have to climb down and finish the job. He didn't. Did he, maybe, in his heart of hearts wish Bulls would have died. Sure. Did he go down and finish the job? He didn't. He's Matt Murdock. And, his gun has no bullets.

I think Matt believes that if he ever crossed that line, Bullseye would win.

It's like what Mephisto told his son Blackheart in the pages of DAREDEVIL. Blackheart was smug when he showed his father that he had killed a man and a woman who were enjoying a picnic. Mephisto explained to his son that that kind of evil was rudimentary and the works of a novice. "Now, my son," Mephisto proclaimed, "if you had made that good woman kill you, that is REAL evil." (got to love Nocienti).

While Matt never heard this conversation, I do think he understands this. When fighting the monster, don't become the monster.

Matt never has murder in his heart.

rgj

[Clayton Blind Love]

Anything in the hands of Bullseye is deadly weapon! Sai or no sai, Bullseye is very dangerous. Hanging there, he could of picked his nose and flicked it. There is no telling how hurt Daredevil would of been then.

Okay, I realise that I've lost it.

C.
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Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me

[harryhausen]

Good point, rgj, about climbing down and finishing the job. This is such a great issue and I love hearing what everyone thinks.

I was thinking about the Catholic angle that came up when this Lester-droppin’ episode was mentioned in the thread about issue #102 and it occurred to me that Matt, in ‘killing’ Bullseye might have been prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice: his soul in exchange for the lives of those Bullseye would kill in the future. Maybe he was thinking that he would violate even his own religious code in order to save lives. Human life being more important than his own soul. Hard for me to evaluate, but it’s a cool angle.

Also, couldn’t one on the side of ‘No, he’s not a killer’ argue that DD shouldn’t drop Bullseye, no matter what? Even if he takes a sai in the eye? (I couldn’t resist the rhyme.) If his goal is to Never Kill, it should, logically, extend to include even the possibility that he will die in that fruitless pursuit.

I really don’t know the answers (and am not being sarcastic in posing these questions – just think it’s interesting).

[jumonji]

Just taking a step back here to consider that we're discussing what a fictional character might have been thinking as he dropped another fictional character to his hypothetical (and fictional) death in a comic book that came out twenty-five years ago. And, no, I'm not being sarcastic here (hey, I'm posting in this thread too), it was just something that came to mind.

I haven't even considered the Catholic angle here. I know a few (but not very many) Catholics and grew up in one of those secular - and Lutheran - countries, so what do I know. I think a bigger question to consider here is whether people feel that killing is ever justified from a general perspective. The reason I bring this up is because I think that influences people's opinions of issue #181 and how they choose to look at DD's actions. To take it one step further: At what point does it become okay NOT to kill Bullseye. How many people does he have to kill before someone decides it's time to take him out of the picture? I'm not saying that that's what DD should be doing (again, he's not the Punisher), I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, no pun intended. Although, Devil's Advocate does sound like a good name for a future story arc...

Anyway, just throwing some ideas around, before slowly retreating to let others battle it out.

One more thing, I'm not sure I buy the whole thing about how DD's hypersenses would have let him know that he hadn't finished the job. 1) Bulleseye was severly injured and there is no way DD would have known for sure that he wasn't going to make it (didn't he break his neck?!). 2) Yes, his hypersenses can tell him stuff about broken bones, internal bleeding and stuff like that but he's not a human CAT scan, nor is he a trained physician. 3) I'll just refer to my first post in this thread on this one where I stated that while he probably crossed the killer line here, he didn't specifically intend to kill Bullseye, but he knew that his actions might do just that. If he had gone to finish the job, that really would have been out of character and more than a littel "Punisher-esque."

But hey, that's just my two Swedish crowns.
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The Other Murdock Papers

[the gael]

that's strange, but I have always ( maybe am I wrong ) thought that the phrase had the complete opposite sense.

Matt tried to save him but bullseye was pretty fanatic. He prefered being killed than accepting the superiority of his enemy. That proves how insane he is. If he killed Matt, then he falled and died. But like the old story of " the scorpion and the frog ", that's his true nature.

whatever Matt did, bullseye would be dead. Yes, Matt is skilled and has supersense, but only a man with superforce could have saved bullseye. It was his own choice. Saving his own life or diing was the only choice DD had ( I presume )

Matt did what anyone would have done, saving himself.

And for me Matt thought " AT LEAST, You'll kill no one ever again ", as if he tried to justified an act that he will live to regret ( but in fact, he had no choice ), as if he understood that he couldn't save everybody in the world.

If you really want to kill bullseye, knowing that you can hear his heartbeat, you can finish the job. The man is gravely injured by a fall, if you break his neck, who will notice ? And it's the night, in a dark alley. Nobody saw him fall. Without help, he will die. very painfully, without being able to do anything to save his own life. could be a great " punisher like " message to other criminals. Kill someone I care and you will recieve the bullseye treatment. Instead, what did Matt ? He called an ambulance...

It's my personnal feeling and I may be wrong. In fact, only Frank Miller really knows ( It would be a good question asked to him someday )