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Kuljit Mithra
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1530
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I'm a little late for this one (wasn't around on the weekend, sorry)
What I've appreciated about the discussion on these boards over the years is the passion and knowledge you guys possess... but sometimes things get personal. I do try to let you guys work it out first. In some cases I have to lock the thread if it doesn't look like it's going to end well. Let's try to keep things civil. Please?
Thanks!
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ah....so you're too liberal to appreciate Nocenti.
Look, I'm sure the rational thing to do would just be to let this drop but I refuse to let oversized posts obscure the point and win the day.
If Christine doesn't like Nocenti, that's fine. I honestly couldn't care less. I fully accept that Nocenti isn't everyone's cup of tea. HOWEVER, do not come in here and claim that you're some sort of super progressive liberal (that just happens to have a problem with Michael Moore too) and THAT'S why you don't like Nocenti.
The original post just reaks of a hacky hatchet job. The conclusion that you put in your subject line and then repeat through out the post is that Nocenti is not a progressive thinker (or at least not as progressive as people think). The "evidence" you drag out is this lame "she doesn't approach the issue of blindness with enough respect".
This is crap for a number of reasons. First, you take a whole bunch of stuff way out of context. I haven't read the issues in questions in years but I can tell you that a lot of Matt's interaction with Tyrone has an undercurrent of him feeling out of control. He's trying to "fix" Tyrone because he's actually trying to fix himself. There's another layer of anger insofar as Matt sees Tyrone as having been unjustly blinded.
While on that subject: BEING BLIND IS A BAD THING. There, I said it. Of course it's not bad as in blind people are bad people or anything like that. However, there can be no doubt that the ability to see is quite handy. There's a fine line between understanding that although the inability to see is, in fact, a disability it is by no means a life ending one and demanding that being blind is just fantastic and anyone who suggests otherwise is a bigot. Christine has tipped over that line. In fact, the weird position Christine seems to have taken is actually quite disrespectful because it ignores the challanges actually faced by the blind.
Anyway, back to how blindness is handled by Nocenti: the other thing Christine blissfully ignores is that every other writer is just as "disrespectful" as Nocenti. Stan the Man has Matt bumping into things. D.G. Chichester has him "pad" the corners in his apartment (as though all blind people are incapible of walking around their homes). Christine merrily says "that's okay" because those writers are less serious. She even takes Miller's ideas that she finds offensive and assigns them to Nocenti. What?
So it's okay when every other writer does it but it's unforgivable when Nocenit does? Obviously there's an agenda here.
Look, just to hit the main point again: I take offence at this not only because Christine is throwing around all this baseless crap but she's doing so to smear Nocenti's reputation as a progressive.
Nitpicking progressive thinkers to death, taking something tiny and vague and using that to declare progressives hypocrits is the favorite passtime conservative naysayers.
The agenda in this thread is obvious.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuljit Mithra wrote: | Okay, I'm a little late for this one (wasn't around on the weekend, sorry)
What I've appreciated about the discussion on these boards over the years is the passion and knowledge you guys possess... but sometimes things get personal. I do try to let you guys work it out first. In some cases I have to lock the thread if it doesn't look like it's going to end well. Let's try to keep things civil. Please?
Thanks! |
I was typing the above post when this went up. So please don't think I typed in a nasty post despite reading your warning.
That said. Well, I try to be civil.
Sometimes it doesn't work.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | That said. Well, I try to be civil.
Sometimes it doesn't work. |
No doubt. |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Okay. I'm actually going to answer this one. Why? No, I'm not going to hit you over the head or anything. I actually thought this post was thought-provoking. I know you're not stupid (or evil), and I know you had it in you. If you choose to answer this, I hope you'll give me the courtesy of actually reading my response and try to understand my point of view rather than deciding for me what that is. And yes, this is an insanely long post. That should not be seen as a way to obscure the issue but to actually address your points as thoroughly as possible.
| james castle wrote: | | Ah....so you're too liberal to appreciate Nocenti. |
Okay, for full disclosure here. I'm not too liberal for Nocenti. On most issues she is to the left of me. However, this is a matter of degree and doesn't actually bother me much. I'm active in politics in my community and belong to the Swedish Moderate Party. It is the second largest political party in Sweden, behind the Social Democrats and it is the one that is the farthest to the right (of the seven parties in parliament). You might take this to mean that I'm some right-wing nut, but rest assured that the Swedish political spectrum in no way overlaps with the American one (and yes, I know you're Canadian and that there's a big difference). For example: There is not a single party in Sweden that doesn't take universal health care for granted. I do too, and consider the fact that people in many countries get billed for their ambulance ride to the hospital to be obscene. I'm solidly pro-choice, I'm pro gay marriage and many other things that would be considered progressive in North America. By American standards, I'm a middle-of-the-road Democrat. I don't know what that translates into in Canada.
| james castle wrote: | | HOWEVER, do not come in here and claim that you're some sort of super progressive liberal (that just happens to have a problem with Michael Moore too) and THAT'S why you don't like Nocenti. |
See above. And if you had read what I said about Michael Moore more carefully, you would have noticed that I said that I didn't disagree with his views as much as I did with his delivery. There's a difference and one that does mirror some of my feelings about Nocenti. Believe me, I don't like George W Bush one iota more than you do.
| james castle wrote: | | The original post just reaks of a hacky hatchet job. The conclusion that you put in your subject line and then repeat through out the post is that Nocenti is not a progressive thinker (or at least not as progressive as people think). The "evidence" you drag out is this lame "she doesn't approach the issue of blindness with enough respect". |
That, again, is your opinon. Could I have constructed my argument in a different way? Sure, I'm starting to wish I had. Not because I want to retract anything, but because I felt that I should have chosen a more effective way of expressing my point of view. However, I do feel that she doesn't treat the issue of blindness with enough respect. That's a feeling I'm entitled to. As for the evidence, I'll return to that further down.
| james castle wrote: | | This is crap for a number of reasons. First, you take a whole bunch of stuff way out of context. I haven't read the issues in questions in years but I can tell you that a lot of Matt's interaction with Tyrone has an undercurrent of him feeling out of control. He's trying to "fix" Tyrone because he's actually trying to fix himself. There's another layer of anger insofar as Matt sees Tyrone as having been unjustly blinded. |
I'm not sure I think they are out of context. All those lines are from the same issue and there are actually even more things in the same issue that I didn't include. This is also just one issue out of many where I thought this issue was handled poorly. As for him trying to fix himself, I think you are absolutely right. That would actually make sense to me. And, like I said somewhere else, he actually (strangely enough) comes across as someone who's bitter about his own loss of sight.
| james castle wrote: | | While on that subject: BEING BLIND IS A BAD THING. There, I said it. Of course it's not bad as in blind people are bad people or anything like that. However, there can be no doubt that the ability to see is quite handy. There's a fine line between understanding that although the inability to see is, in fact, a disability it is by no means a life ending one and demanding that being blind is just fantastic and anyone who suggests otherwise is a bigot. Christine has tipped over that line. In fact, the weird position Christine seems to have taken is actually quite disrespectful because it ignores the challanges actually faced by the blind. |
Here is where you are absolutely right (well the first part). Being blind is, objectively, very bad. One of my biggest fears is going blind. I would one hundred times rather be deaf than blind. Total blindness is considered to be a major disability, and I 100% agree with that assessment. What I object to with the "blindness as tragedy" thing is not that it wouldn't, in actuality, be a huge personal tragedy, but that that tragedy would then after a certain amount of time prohibit a person's chances at a somewhat normal, happy and productive life. I have a strict no-pity policy. I personally think it would suck to be blind, but it would suck even more to be blind and have people constantly feeling sorry for you because pity tends to devalue the person who is being pitied. I believe that blind people can be as happy as sighted people, but I'm in no way, shape or form denying that it is a huge loss and one that is accompanied by great difficulty.
| james castle wrote: | | Anyway, back to how blindness is handled by Nocenti: the other thing Christine blissfully ignores is that every other writer is just as "disrespectful" as Nocenti. Stan the Man has Matt bumping into things. D.G. Chichester has him "pad" the corners in his apartment (as though all blind people are incapible of walking around their homes). Christine merrily says "that's okay" because those writers are less serious. She even takes Miller's ideas that she finds offensive and assigns them to Nocenti. What? |
Did I expect more of Nocenti than other writers because of her track record? Yes I did. For the same reason I expect more from you than a five-year-old (which I am in no way implying that you are, it was just a comparison). I actually did expect that because she handles other issues with such care, that she would nail this one as well. That, in all honesty, was why my reaction to it was so strong. If she can handle so many other issues as well as she did (even though I though it was slightly Michael Moore-ish), why couldn't she have treated this one better. I'm not saying that Matt should have treated Tyrone as if everything was just nice and dandy and that his loss (a significant one) was nothing.
| james castle wrote: | | So it's okay when every other writer does it but it's unforgivable when Nocenit does? Obviously there's an agenda here. |
No there is no agenda here. I wanted to like Nocenti. Heck, I wanted to love her. I still do. I feel like I'm honestly missing out by not seeing the same greatness that most other fans see. Truly, I do.
| james castle wrote: | | Look, just to hit the main point again: I take offence at this not only because Christine is throwing around all this baseless crap but she's doing so to smear Nocenti's reputation as a progressive. |
Okay, I am hereby openly admitting for all to read that I think Ann Nocenti was a progressive writer. But, I still think this was one issue that stood in stark contrast to the other things she brought up. So, on this issue (and the title of the topic was referring to this issue) I maintain that she was not as progressive as she was on other issues.
| james castle wrote: | | Nitpicking progressive thinkers to death, taking something tiny and vague and using that to declare progressives hypocrits is the favorite passtime conservative naysayers. |
I'm not a conservative. I see myself as liberal, but if you don't think I am that's okay too. There's no agenda here.
Finally, and let me be 100% clear on this. This has nothing to do with politics. What it all really boils down to, and I'm really coming out of the closet here, is that while many writers handle the blindness poorly (really, I agree with you there, Nocenti isn't the only one), she more than anyone else I can think of (and again, not strictly the only one) denies the reality of the main characters own blindness. This is done by him effectively distancing himself from other, "normal," blind people (as shown by the Tyrone story) and by having him repeatedly point out to the reader, in various ways, that "I'm not really blind." To take an example, here's one quote (can't remember the issue #): "I'm blind, but my radar makes me sighted, so I have to pretend to be blind." I'm going to come right out and admit it: that bugs the heck out of me. First of all, just to show that I'm not delusional: I am perfectly aware of the fact that Matt is not dependent on the two most obvious symbols of blindness, that is the white cane and Braille. He's a superhero for crying out loud. The thing to add here is that the amount of faking that he does in regular life actually bothers me a great deal. It's incredibly disingenuous and one of the characters main moral flaws. What actually does make it forgivable in my mind is the fact that he actually does have what would amount to a fairly substantial visual impairment (and I'm including the radar sense as a form of vision here). If he were to go around in his daily life and pretend that he could see normally he would give himself a huge ulcer. I would even go as far as to say that it would be impossible for him to do so. I mean can anyone imagine him faking his way through college (he quite obviously would have no clue what was on the blackboard)? That makes his blind man "act" forgivable. The fact that though very large portions of it is an act, not all of it is. When Nocenti plays the "I'm not really blind card" she (to me) reminds me of how disingenuous Matt is in this regard while not really fully acknowledging that the act is actually necessary. He becomes even more of a hypocrit rather than someone who does what he has to because openly revealing the very strange way in which he can "see" some things and not others would reveal his powers.
So there, I said it. This doesn't in any way invalidate anything I said previously, which I stand by 100%, because in my mind this is all connected. In fact, it makes the poor handling of the thing with Tyrone even worse in my mind. I would even do something as out-of-left-field as to quote rgj here by saying that under Chichester (who had his own set of flaws) the reader never forgot that Matt was blind. Nocenti tries to minimize it to the point where his "act" is portrayed as if it is only an act and not a necessity and thus makes him seem like even more of a hypocrite than he already is. So there you go, not a political thing at all. You may think I'm nuts, but there is no hidden agenda here.
Speaking of which, and this is a question addressed to everyone: How do you feel about the amount of faking Matt does in his daily life? Does it bother you? Let's debate that as well.
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | Speaking of which, and this is a question addressed to everyone: How do you feel about the amount of faking Matt does in his daily life? Does it bother you? Let's debate that as well. |
Oh, please. My God. So, what do all of you think about Peter Parker when he pretends not to be as strong as he is? Or how about Clark Kent? He acts like a bumbling nerd. What a hypocrite!!!
I've only skimmed over this thread so I may have missed a few things. But, is jumonji saying that Nocienti is anti-blind?? That she put words in Matt's mouth (when speaking with Tyronne--and I'm in agreement with jc as to Matt's motivation in what he said to Tyronne) that were "offensive."
I just don't see it.
Look. Matt is blind. His eyes don't work. Matt doesn't go around faking he is blind (cause he is). If you want to say he fakes not having his compensation for blindess (amplified senses and radar) that's fine. But the guy is blind. And, Ann is right. He is NOT a "normal" blind man. His powers allow him to do what "ordinary" blind peole can't do. And, these powers can also make him more vulnerable than an "ordinary" blind person.
I don't see how the covnversation with Tyronne makes Ann a bad, diappointing writer.
Ann not only used Matt's blindess effectively within a story, like when a disoriented DD, halfway though his battle with Sabretooth uses his other senses to get his foucs, so much so that Sabretooth deduces Matt's blindess as Matt tilts his head and sniffs the air, but she also used blindess as a theme. The story "Of Crowns and Horns" is a great example. Matt helps a psychiatrist husband "see" how he is emotionally abusing and using his wife. The whole frickin' story is about a blind man giving sight to a man who CAN see (like Bono once wrote, "No one is blinder than he who will not see).
And, Ann's use of Mephisto when the demon admonishes the do-gooder Matt. "Are you so blind to the truth" (or something like that) that one man can't do damn thing about fighting "evil." As if Matt was crazy enough to believe "evil" was something tangible rather than a concept that dwarfs one man to insignificance?? To Mephisto's annoyance, yeah, our boy Matt is blind, both figuratively and literally to not believe in the will of one man.
Ann used Matt's blindess very well during her run. She was a brilliant writer and I wish she'd do something DD in the future. Many have mentioned the various topics Ann wrote about. But, at it's core, Ann's entire run was really about Matt trying to justify using violence to stop violence. That's the hypocrisy Matt was wrestling with the entire time under Ann's pen. Now that kind of theme makes the "hypocrisy" of Matt "faking" blindess seem silly (seriously, jumonji, is that the "hypocrisy" you got out of Ann's run??)
rgj
p.s. During Born Again, Matt faked that he was sighted when he got the job at the Cafe. Did okay, for the most part. He could proabaly get away with it for a while. |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | Look. Matt is blind. His eyes don't work. Matt doesn't go around faking he is blind (cause he is). If you want to say he fakes not having his compensation for blindess (amplified senses and radar) that's fine. But the guy is blind. |
Thanks for chiming in. You probably wouldn't expect this, but I agree with 100% of what you say in this paragraph. I agree with every single word. In fact, I couldn't have said it better myself. My view has always been that he doesn't fake that he's blind, he fakes that he doesn't have certain powers and that there's a huge different between those two. However, I feel that there is a difference between what he does and Spider-Man hiding his powers (or Superman for that matter). This last part of my post was an open question to other readers since I know that the "he's not really blind" opinion is very common.
Like I said, it makes much more sense to me for him to "pretend" to be blind than for him to pretend to be sighted. Like you've said (and I agree with this too), he can certainly pretend to be sighted. He does it all the time as Daredevil, he did it as Jack Batlin', he did it in Europe during Brubaker's run. All I'm saying is that he would have a much harder time doing this in a college setting, in his job as a lawyer, and with people he hangs around all the time in a more or less intimate way. It wouldn't take very long for people to pick up on it.
| rgj wrote: | | And, Ann is right. He is NOT a "normal" blind man. His powers allow him to do what "ordinary" blind peole can't do. And, these powers can also make him more vulnerable than an "ordinary" blind person. |
Of course he's not a normal blind man. I have never ever suggested that he would be. That would be absurd. The only thing I have said (and I belive that you agree with me, from what you've said here and in the past), is that his radar and heightened senses don't actually make the fact that he can't see with his eyes entirely inconsequential. That's all I'm saying.
| rgj wrote: | | Ann used Matt's blindess very well during her run. She was a brilliant writer and I wish she'd do something DD in the future. Many have mentioned the various topics Ann wrote about. But, at it's core, Ann's entire run was really about Matt trying to justify using violence to stop violence. That's the hypocrisy Matt was wrestling with the entire time under Ann's pen. |
I respect your opinion even though I don't entirely agree with you. I will, however, try to go through Nocenti's issues again and see if I change my mind on this. I'm completely open to the idea that I may actually be wrong. Not in the sense that what I felt when reading her writing was "wrong" (I felt it, my reaction was real), but I will give an honest try to move past this gut reaction. There are, however, as I said in the other thread, other things about her tone that I don't appreciate and that have nothing to do with this. But yes, I'm open to re-evaluating my stance on this issue.
| rgj wrote: | | Now that kind of theme makes the "hypocrisy" of Matt "faking" blindess seem silly (seriously, jumonji, is that the "hypocrisy" you got out of Ann's run??) |
No, not at all, but the hypocrisy (which is always there) felt much harder to "defend."
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train
Guardian Devil
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | My view has always been that he doesn't fake that he's blind, he fakes that he doesn't have certain powers and that there's a huge different between those two. However, I feel that there is a difference between what he does and Spider-Man hiding his powers (or Superman for that matter). This last part of my post was an open question to other readers since I know that the "he's not really blind" opinion is very common. |
perhaps i'm a little thick in the head, but i really don't see the distinction between matt pretending to be a "normal" blind person and clark kent pretending to have "normal" human strength. i always assumed both were done with the intention of protecting the secret identity...both are attempting to trick to the general public that they do not have the powers that they have been given. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| train wrote: | | jumonji wrote: | | My view has always been that he doesn't fake that he's blind, he fakes that he doesn't have certain powers and that there's a huge different between those two. However, I feel that there is a difference between what he does and Spider-Man hiding his powers (or Superman for that matter). This last part of my post was an open question to other readers since I know that the "he's not really blind" opinion is very common. |
perhaps i'm a little thick in the head, but i really don't see the distinction between matt pretending to be a "normal" blind person and clark kent pretending to have "normal" human strength. i always assumed both were done with the intention of protecting the secret identity...both are attempting to trick to the general public that they do not have the powers that they have been given. |
And it ALL sounds like a violation of the Superperson Registration Act.
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| train wrote: | | perhaps i'm a little thick in the head, but i really don't see the distinction between matt pretending to be a "normal" blind person and clark kent pretending to have "normal" human strength. i always assumed both were done with the intention of protecting the secret identity...both are attempting to trick to the general public that they do not have the powers that they have been given. |
You're not the least bit thick in the head.  It seems like most people feel as you do, which is interesting for me to hear.
Here's where I think there's a difference: Spider-man and Superman hiding their strength is a little bit like walking as opposed to running. Walking is not the same as pretending that you can't run. The times when they would be in a situation where they would benefit from using their powers and then have to decide not to use them are very few during the day. Spider-Man just walking down the street isn't hiding his powers, he's just walking down the street. (He is passively hiding his powers whereas Matt is actively hiding his.)
Using a white cane that you don't actually need is one step beyond this, that's all I'm saying. It's not the same as, say, having Peter Parker fake that he's in a wheelchair, since Matt actually is blind. He would fail an eye exam miserably, he doesn't even have a pupillary reflex. It's just that I feel that using a white cane you don't need isn't the same as pretending you can't fly. So yes, this does bother me a little. That's not to say that what he's doing is wrong, since not doing it would reveal that he has special powers. This would be unless he could actually hide (100% in any situation) that he can't see. Another problem in my mind is that he's not just doing it to cover his secret identity because he did it for many years before becoming a superhero. That he's hiding his ability to the general public is one thing, but to hide it from Foggy all those years in college... He would have constantly been asking for help with things that he didn't need help with, and that's a little worse than just pretending that you can't fly when you can. Of course, if it were any other way, the whole premise of the book would fall flat, I'm just saying that I think it's morally questionable, that's all. And when Nocenti, for instance, has him thinking to himself "pretending to be handicapped is such a strain" then that just gets to that part of me that does feel a little uncomfortable with it. But I completely understand if you guys don't feel the same way.
What would make me feel a little better about it would be if he actually did need it sometimes. Okay, don't laugh me out of cyberspace just yet. I'm just saying that if he approached using it kind of like a person would when putting on a bicycle helmet before they get on their bike. You rarely actually need it, but when you do you're glad to have it. I mean, the conclusion to be drawn from #169, when DD fights Bullseye in the subway, would be that he very often can't "see" anything in the subway (like every time a train goes by apparently). I'm not saying that that's the case, but would I feel better about him doing the full blind guy thing if things did in fact get a little "fuzzy around the edges" every time he walks by a jackhammer at a construction site? Sure. And the Braille thing is, to me, not even part of the act. It seems 100% logical that he would have a much easier time with it than print even when the latter doesn't necessarily present a big problem.
Okay, another long post. I'm sorry. Before I go, I would just like to add that the "Of Crowns and Horns" issue which rgj mentioned is one of those issues which I would use in support of my whole original point with this thread. And I'm not talking about "a blind man teaching another to see" (metaphorical uses of the blindness theme has nothing to with any of this) but the whole scene with the blind beggar. Open question: What was Nocenti trying to say with that scene?
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | train wrote: | | perhaps i'm a little thick in the head, but i really don't see the distinction between matt pretending to be a "normal" blind person and clark kent pretending to have "normal" human strength. i always assumed both were done with the intention of protecting the secret identity...both are attempting to trick to the general public that they do not have the powers that they have been given. |
You're not the least bit thick in the head. It seems like most people feel as you do, which is interesting for me to hear.
(He is passively hiding his powers whereas Matt is actively hiding his.) |
But why should that matter? Sure, one is passive...one is active. So what?
| jumonji wrote: |
Using a white cane that you don't actually need is one step beyond this, that's all I'm saying. It's not the same as, say, having Peter Parker fake that he's in a wheelchair, since Matt actually is blind. |
What? That seems to make it more justifiable.
| jumonji wrote: | | It's just that I feel that using a white cane you don't need isn't the same as pretending you can't fly. |
But why? Why isn't it the same? You just keep stating your conclusion over and over again.
| jumonji wrote: |
Another problem in my mind is that he's not just doing it to cover his secret identity because he did it for many years before becoming a superhero. |
But for nearly exactly the same reasons. He was hiding his powers....his ability to become a hero. Also he promised his mom.
| jumonji wrote: | | I'm just saying that if he approached using it kind of like a person would when putting on a bicycle helmet before they get on their bike. You rarely actually need it, but when you do you're glad to have it. |
What? I'm not even trying to be "mean" here. That makes no sense.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Even I admit I have to stop responding pretty soon here. I just wanted to point out that in the issues Christine is referring to Tyrone had just become blind. I don't remember the timing but I think we're talking days and weeks here. So Nocenti portrayed a child who had recently lost his sight as being helpless. Holy moly.
Also, while I'm on it, I recall a scene where Matt and Mary were getting it on and Tyrone was near the kitchen. Tyrone says something like "I feel something hot. am I near the stove?". Already, Tyrone is shown adjusting to his new disability.
So, yeah, Christine's account of Nocenti's treatment of Tyrone is actually fairly misleading. Surprise, surprise.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Even I admit I have to stop responding pretty soon here. |
Yes, I will stop as well.
| james castle wrote: | | I just wanted to point out that in the issues Christine is referring to Tyrone had just become blind. I don't remember the timing but I think we're talking days and weeks here. So Nocenti portrayed a child who had recently lost his sight as being helpless. Holy moly. |
No, you're entirely missing my point. Of course Tyrone would be helpless, who wouldn't be? Going blind is not nothing. It's a huge loss, I'm not denying that at all. In fact, I'm not even saying that she depicts him as being helpless. She doesn't. Having Matt say "Otherwise... he's just another one of the poor stumbling blinded" is much closer to being my actual point. That offends me. It doesn't have to offend you, I respect that.
| james castle wrote: | | Also, while I'm on it, I recall a scene where Matt and Mary were getting it on and Tyrone was near the kitchen. Tyrone says something like "I feel something hot. am I near the stove?". Already, Tyrone is shown adjusting to his new disability. |
Agreed, see above.
| james castle wrote: | | So, yeah, Christine's account of Nocenti's treatment of Tyrone is actually fairly misleading. Surprise, surprise. |
This is uncalled for. This is the difference between you and me, and I actually think we have a great deal in common. Most people who post on message boards are a little different from those who just visit them. People who post generally have opinions that they like to express and some do so with more passion than others. I, like you, am an opinionated person. I voice these opinions quite loudly (and yes, I write insanely long posts), and I do so believing that I am "right" (to the extent that there even is a right and wrong). I think I can come across as something of a know-it-all and a little overbearing. I do, however, try to refrain from personal insults, and sarcasm, and saying that someone who doesn't agree with me is more or less an idiot. Now I'm going to do something that might shock you. I'm going to apologize for one thing. I was very sarcastic in my original post when I wrote "Nice job Ann!" That was an example of unwarranted sarcasm. I shouldn't have said that, and I should have tried to express myself in a more mature manner. If Ann Nocenti should ever read this: I'm sorry Ann.
One thing I'm not backing down from is this: I was genuinly offended by Nocenti's handling of this issue. Like I said to rgj, I'm willing to try to move beyond this and be open to the idea that I may have been wrong. If I'm the only one who sees the elephant in the room, I'm actually open to the idea that I might be hallucinating. However, through my "glasses" (and this has nothing to do with general politics) I do see an elephant in the room and I can't pretend that I don't.
As for hiding one's powers, I was honestly trying to ask a question for which I know there's not a right or wrong answer. You don't think there's a difference between what Peter Parker is doing and what Matt Murdock is doing? That's totally fine. That answers my question and explains why this isn't a problem for you. I'm not going to try to say that you're wrong, it would seem that most people agree with you. Heck, maybe I'm wrong. Imagine that. I think there's a difference, and that's just how I feel. It doesn't mean that I'm stupid. Having said that, I love this character with a passion (obviously), and I know that you do too. Let us at least agree on that.
Okay that's it. Sorry everyone for writing essay upon essay here for the last couple of days. I'm sorry James Castle, rgj, and anyone else whom I may have offended in any way. Just please don't insinuate that I am in any way unintelligent. To most people, whether they agree with me or not, it is obvious that I'm not. Perfect? Far from it, but I am a human being and I, like everyone else, deserves to be treated with some amount of respect whether you agree with me or not. And may I commend you for actually improving in this regard during the course of this discussion. Your last posts have contained many points that I found to be valid and thoughtprovoking. The first few ones were just mean-spirited. Did you hurt my feelings? Yes you did. That is not something you should actually be proud of.
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train
Guardian Devil
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | It's just that I feel that using a white cane you don't need isn't the same as pretending you can't fly....He would have constantly been asking for help with things that he didn't need help with...I'm just saying that I think it's morally questionable, that's all. |
your point is well made and understood. i really had never considered this. like i stated in my previous post, i had always written it off as the whole "protect the secret identity" thing. i must admit, it does come off as a little back handed. kind of like having Bill Gates asking if he could borrow $20 until payday.
| jumonji wrote: | | What would make me feel a little better about it would be if he actually did need it sometimes...I'm not saying that that's the case, but would I feel better about him doing the full blind guy thing if things did in fact get a little "fuzzy around the edges" every time he walks by a jackhammer at a construction site? Sure. |
i can't pull exact examples of issues off the top of my head, but there have been times that this has happened. i enjoy instances like that. heroes with "feet of clay" have always been more interesting to me the someone like superman.
| jumonji wrote: | | Okay, another long post. I'm sorry. |
don't be.  |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: |
One thing I'm not backing down from is this: I was genuinly offended by Nocenti's handling of this issue. Like I said to rgj, I'm willing to try to move beyond this and be open to the idea that I may have been wrong. If I'm the only one who sees the elephant in the room, I'm actually open to the idea that I might be hallucinating. However, through my "glasses" (and this has nothing to do with general politics) I do see an elephant in the room and I can't pretend that I don't. |
Oh, it's the glasses. "I'm actively involved in a right wing, conservative, libertarian party. Also, I don't get Nocenti. Isn't that weird?". No. That's not weird. Of course that's not weird. Just as I have literally no idea how people twist their mind around thinking that being a libertarian is a good thing (hint: the basis of all right wing thought is "me! me! me! me!") it's no surprise that conservatives can't get their mind around progressive thought. So let's leave it at that. You're right wing and don't get Nocenti. I'm left wing and don't understand...I don't know...early morning talk radio hosts.
| jumonji wrote: |
As for hiding one's powers, I was honestly trying to ask a question for which I know there's not a right or wrong answer. You don't think there's a difference between what Peter Parker is doing and what Matt Murdock is doing? That's totally fine. That answers my question and explains why this isn't a problem for you. I'm not going to try to say that you're wrong, it would seem that most people agree with you. Heck, maybe I'm wrong. Imagine that. I think there's a difference, and that's just how I feel. It doesn't mean that I'm stupid. Having said that, I love this character with a passion (obviously), and I know that you do too. Let us at least agree on that. |
Okeee, so the X-Men go to the mall. Jean Grey and Iceman are morally okay because they just don't use their powers. Beast, Nightcrawler and Angel are bad (the first two for using image inducers and Angel for pinning down his wings). Cyclops is...errr...is wearing special glasses active or passive? Maybe he's just so-so.
Yeah, you're wrong. It isn't a "let's agree to disagree" type situtation. You're wrong.
| jumonji wrote: | | Just please don't insinuate that I am in any way unintelligent. To most people, whether they agree with me or not, it is obvious that I'm not. Perfect? Far from it, but I am a human being and I, like everyone else, deserves to be treated with some amount of respect whether you agree with me or not. |
I'm sorry if I insinuated that you're unintelligent. I certainly didn't mean to. All I'm saying is that you think a number of wrong things.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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