Daredevil Message Board

[Blind Alley]

In showdown 3, it seems the voters have decided to buy another round for "A Beer With the Devil".
In showdown 4, "Golden Rut" wins the Golden Medal.

We're past the first half of ROUND 1 and among the winners are two issues written by Frank Miller and two by Nocenti.

So, let's start the second half of ROUND 1 to see if other writers can make it to ROUND 2 !

ROUND 1
Showdown 1 : #169 "Devils" (8 votes) vs #245 "Burn !" (3 votes)
Showdown 2 : #191 "Roulette" (11) vs #247 "The Backwards Man" (1)
Showdown 3 : #192 "Promises" (4) vs #266 "A Beer With The Devil" (5) vs V2 #88 "The Secret Life of Foggy Nelson" (1)
Showdown 4 : #219 "Badlands" (3) vs #268 "Golden Rut" (7) vs V2 #94 "Our Love Story" (0)
Showdown 5 : #185 "Guts" vs #223 "The Price" vs #277 "Of Crowns and Horns"
Showdown 6 : #225 ". . . And Then You Die" vs #291 "All The News That Fits"
Showdown 7 : #208 "The Deadliest Night of My Life" vs #236 "American Dreamer" vs #304 "34 Hours"
Showdown 8 : #220 "Fog" vs #238 "It Comes With The Claws" vs #380 "Just One Good Story"
ROUND 2
Showdown 9 : #169 "Devils" vs Winner of 5
Showdown 10 : #191 "Roulette" vs Winner of 6
Showdown 11 : #266 "A Beer With The Devil" vs Winner of 7
Showdown 12 : #268 "Golden Rut" vs Winner of 8
ROUND 3
Showdown 13 : Winner of 9 vs Winner of 11
Showdown 14 : Winner of 10 vs Winner of 12
FINAL :
Showdown 15 : Winner of 13 vs Winner of 14

Showdown 6 is opposing two "Hero versus Villain" stories.
- In V1 #225, by O'Neil and Mazz, Daredevil is getting high with the Vulture.
- In V1 #291, by Nocenti and Lee Weeks, DD has to take down Bullet.

As said before : try to re-read the issues before voting.
And don't be shy to share your thoughts, tell us what you liked (or disliked), which details you remembered, what makes the story special to you... anything you want that relates to the issue !
Express yourself !

This poll will be running for four days.
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[Blind Alley]

I was torn for that one : #225 has great art but I like the story of #291 better : it's more optimistic.

#291 has more text (it's written by Nocenti, after all) but also subtext (about the press and how they sort up and treat news).
We get to see many characters as Ben Urich, Jonah, Foggy, Bullet and his son without feeling the issue is crowded.
DD is back home and ready for some new adventures.
I prefer the vibe of this issue to the very well-crafted #225 which sees Matt and Foggy splitting and give us another illustration of DD, the "Never Give Up" hero.

On a sidenote, I read #225 first in its French version. It was titled "La dernière tue" (= The last one kills)
The translator had choose to refer to the Latin quote "Vulnerant Omnes, Ultima Necat" (= Every hour hurts, the last one kills). I would only learned that years later but since I always associate this quote to this DD issue...
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[Gloria]

My vote goes for #225.

One reason is that I believe that the Denny O'Neil run is very underrated: It may have been uneven, but he could get as good as he gets here, and there's Mazzuchelli's topping art and storytelling to boot!

I like the use of a Spidey villain (adding a new twist to what being a Vulture implies). I also liked that O'Neil dealt with the aftermath of Heather's death: many writers kill characters for shock value, but O'Neil took the work of dealing with the revenge and mourning of her death. We see the consequences of Matt's late adventures: he has forgotten about the Firm altogether, and poor Foggy couldn't keep the ship from sinking... One is apalled when Matt reacts with surprise at Foggy's news that they're out of a job. Formerly fun-loving Nelson is completely depressed: after a lousy divorce, a whole life of work in the Firm goes down the sewer. Still, he isn't the suicidal type, after all: the real face of danger makes him react and consider that life isn't so bad (even if sometimes it really sucks!)... Similarly, as screwed as matt could feel, he doesn't surrender (Yes, this is the DD attitude we all love). The fight with the Vulture is espectacular, well staged by Mazz.

A wee complaint: The last page or the sub-plot that never developed... unfortunately, there are a number of these during O'Neil's run.

I must say that #291 was an excellent contender: art by the ever competent Lee Weeks, and a script where "the gang is all here!".

One thing that is good about Nocenti's run is that, as much as she played with the character, left things in order for whoever was going to substitute her. By comparison, Bendis was a bit on one heck of a predecessor for Bru: When he was over with Matt, DDs life was so utterly messy, that I believe that, in lesser hands than Brubaker's, the collection might be heading for cancellation (I mean, how does one get from there?! #81 was a though act for anyone following it).

Nocenti clears the way nicely: reinstates Matt's sanity, and has him coming back to the place where he belongs; closes the Bullet storyline, giving the villain's human side without forgetting he's a criminal merc; I also like JJJ being portrayed as an editor concerned about informing the public (and not just the "Spidey: menace" clown we mostly get); and well, after having smeared the Fogster's soul in the Tyrone story, he gives him a chance to redeem himself, and gets the partners reunited (AaAaaw! Gimme-a-hug Teletubby moment!).

There are a few things left, like Karen's fate (which was well handled by Chichester), but overall it is nice wrap-up, and a return to the old status quo without... Well, I was thinking onn OMD (you get the idea )
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

[Francesco]

I voted "...And then you die". The other one is lacking under many aspects.

[Blind Alley]

Hey, this is a close one !

Anyone to plead the cause of his favorite ?
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[jumonji]

I voted in this one and don't remember what I voted. I think I voted for the Nocenti issue. I thought it was pretty good, though I like the one with the Vulture too (used to have a huge bird phobia so he's pretty scary to me). I would write more, but my fingers are hurting from typing too much. I wonder why...
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[Francesco]

I guess I'll do it.

Dear Alley, like you said, what makes these two issues similar is the fact that there is a major showdown between our hero and a villain (though they also contain other themes).

In this aspect, I think that "...And Then You Die" is superior. In it, there is an undeniable symbolism behind the fight.
The vulture. A bird of death. A bird who preys on carcasses. The bird of bad luck par excellance in our collective imaginary. The bird who cynically flies above those who are doomed, anticipating their death.
And undoubtly, Matt is distraught in these issues, because of the death of another loved person. And so is his colleague, Foggy.

Matt fights the Vulture. And in doing so, he fights his fears.
Fear that everything is destined to fall apart. The desperation that follows the demise of a loved one.
Better yet, he doesn't really "fight them" as much as he instead "faces them". He stands against them.
He wins, though not without difficulties. And emerges victorious, from darkness, to the light of the sun.

The setting of the scenes plays an important role. As he's fighting the decisive battle with the Vulture, rain is pouring down. The setting is dark, in tone with those dark feelings. As the fight continues, he and his foe plunge into darkness, and then, after the victory, he emerges under the light of the sun.
I think I'm not exaggerating if I say that this is some excellently carried out allegory.

Yet, by reading this, one could think that, a fight so filled with symbolism is probably portrayed in a boring way, with the villain and the hero making boring and repeated interior monologues/dialogues to explain the reader how symbolic the fight is. But this is not the case. This is probably what Ann Nocenti would've done, but it's not the case with O'Neill.

Here, the meaning of the fight is not explained explicitly and annoyingly for the entire duration of the comic. It emerges from the succession of the scenes. From the compositions of each panel. From the way the story proceeds.

The art is nothing short of superb. Mazzuchelli's work here is at his best. Be it the gloomy settings, the carefully constructed panels, or the almost tangible physicality of the characters.

Their shapes seem to have a consistence. We almost feel the pain of our hero as he's charged by the Vulture. We almost perceive the speed of the Vulture's flight, the violence of the blows they exchange.

Another thing that strikes me in this issue, and that the other totally lacks of, is the importance that O'Neill gives to the pace with which the story proceeds. I don't know if he did this willingly, but, at least in two occasions, the pace changes all of a sudden, with an impressive effect.
This happens before the fight in the cemetery, and before the one in the rooftops.
The pace is initially calm, but still with a sort of tension running underneath. Then, a sudden discontinuity, and the fight starts, in all its fury and explosiveness. With a contrast that shocks the reader, almost stunning him.

A similar contrast is made vivid by the writer with the character of the Vulture itself. As said via thought baloon by DD in both of the fights, despite his frail looks, the Vulture "punches like a wrecking ball" and "charges like a herd of Bulls". A vivid contrast that captures the reader in the vortex of the fight scene even more.

Also, Daredevil fights the way I like him to. Outsmarting the stronger opponent. Mixing his solid martial arts, his mean punches with every trick in his bag. He uses his senses to his advantage, and, even when he's on the losing end, shows bravado: "Yeah, yeah. I allowed you to get within yards of me because of that Nelson, there".

In short, "...And Then You Die" managed to evoke in me intense emotions. This is what, in the end, I request from a comic book.
"all the news that fits" was not as effective in doing it.

[Blind Alley]

Thanks Francesco for explaining your point of view !

The plot #225 has less things going on but is very well-crafted. The art and the storytelling outshine #291 (where on some panels, we can see Weeks is mimicking Mazzucchelli's art).

I can't and I won't change my vote but I think your post could be inspiring for next voters.

So #225 or #291 ?
Which one dies ? Which one fits ?
You decide !
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[jumonji]

[Gloria]

Ditto!
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"