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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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 Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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I agree with you on this Katerine. Despite DD's considerable skill, he can't control every single variable, and he certainly can miss. Not even he has that amount of control in a very stressful situation to do any significant amount of thinking and aiming while deflecting a bullet.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Katerine wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | | He could've redirected the bullet to his gun. To his hand. To his knee. |
Without hitting the girl (the way it most likely would if he'd gone for the hand)? Without risking a continued firefight? Without risking the gun going off again in a totally random direction (the way it most likely would if he'd gone for the knee)?
This implies far too much confidence, for any guy who's never, ever done this before. The middle of the forehead was the only possible target that was big enough to be guaranteed to get the girl free without things going very, very wrong.
Later on, Matt had enough experience with people shooting at him that he could safely deal with it with less-than-lethal force. But here, he was just too inexperienced, and he really did need to get that girl free.
(again, all of this is assuming that I'm correctly remembering the scene, with the girl being held in front of Larks. This is a big assumption, since it's been several years...  ) |
Katerine, Matt hit him right in the middle of the forehead. If we say that he did so because otherwise he could've hit the girl, just because we want to impose that there was no other way, I think that we are a bit cheating ourselves.
I think it's more fair to the character if we admit that he got tired of trying to appease his foe, and this, put together with the fact that the guy was a ruthless killer who was into a circle of children prostitution and who had just shot him, made him decide to kill him. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | I agree with you on this Katerine. Despite DD's considerable skill, he can't control every single variable, and he certainly can miss. Not even he has that amount of control in a very stressful situation to do any significant amount of thinking and aiming while deflecting a bullet. |
So, he couldn't control all variables, wasn't skilled enough and there was the possibility that with that deflection Matt could have hit the vicinities and yet still acted on purpose, is this what we're trying to say?
That later on he thought "how lucky, I hit him in the middle forehead, that was neat"? Seems a little stretched for an interpretation.
It's as if we were searching for an excuse... |
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Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: | | Wow. I respect your view. And you've given me pause to reflect on it. But I think we must agree to disagree. Nothing he did struck me as an act of desperation. Granted, some of the contradictory things he did, didn't always make sense to me. Like you said, I'm not in his troubled head, having to go through what he's going through. Nonetheless, to me at least, most of the things he did, including those that you highlighted, were acts of cool calculation, not desperation. He was not being re-active to his awful circumstances; he was being pro-active. As a result, in that sense, he was playing to the circumstances surrounding him by keeping his opponents off-kilter. That was the sheer genius of it all. That was the only way for him to keep his head above the water and a step ahead of his circumstances. Or at least it seemed so until it all came crashing down on him. |
Thanks for your reply.  I think we may in fact end up having to agree to disagree, though, because I can't think of any possible way to interpret any of the following as calculating:
| Quote: | I am not afraid of you... (I'm not afraid of jail.)
I'm not afraid of you... (I'm not afraid for my life.)
[aloud] "I'm not afraid of you..."
[takes off his mask] I'm. Not. Afraid. Of. You...
I'm the Man Without Fear.
Look up here -- I am not afraid of you. You will hear me out -- you will understand why I am. What this uniform means to me. You will hear me and you will -- that's --
Oh no. What am I doing? WHAT AM I DOING?!
Idiot!
IDIOT! |
| Quote: | My entire life has become a hellish paparizzi nightmare -- Every little media weasel is trolling around loooking for concrete proof that I am actually Daredevil. Everyone looking to get the goods on me...
...And here I am running around the rooftops of my brownstone -- in my civilian clothes -- chasing my homicidal college girlfriend.
"Elektra, please... no games this time. Just once -- you come halfway around the world and then your run away again... I really don't need to be bouncing around rooftops in my civvies. Can we forego the cat and mouse? Just this once? What did Natasha say to you?"
Come on, Elektra, just once speak like a normal human being!! Just --
"What made you come here?
"See, I think her plan -- Natasha's plan here -- was that just the sight of you would jar me -- snap me out of what she thinks is some funk I'm in. Remind me why I'm Daredevil or -- the woman has known me half my life and she doesn't know me at all."
Be quiet!
"Natasha -- hell, everyone thinks that I might have cracked under all of this -- this crap in my life."
Stop embarrassing yourself.
"But no one understands -- I know why I'm Daredevil and I know how important it is. And if I want to keep it all -- I just have to fight smarter than I have been. Maybe even smarter than I am."
She's not your friend!
"And I know what Foggy said to her."
WHY WON'T YOU SHUT UP??!!
"Foggy -- Foggy saiys that there's -- he says we live in a cycle of violence."
Elektra: "We do."
"Uh... well, he says that we create -- that I create a cycle of violence every time I put on my costume --"
SHE'S NOT YOUR PRIEST!
Elektra: "My first sensei said to me: the only death that you can take responsibility for is the one that you commit with your own hand. He's right. I know -- he is right."
Don't do it. Don't embarrass yourself again.
Let it go. Hold it in. Stick would laugh at you.
Don't -- you -- do -- it!!
"Sometimes, I --"
DON'T!!
"I still wish we never left that room."
AAAAAAND... you did it.
Her heart didn't skip. Her breathing didn't budge. I deserved that.
Idiot.
Natasha, wherever yoou are, you are the single worst ex-girlfriend that ever existed. And coming from me -- that is saying something. |
| Quote: | | "GO HOME AND CHANGE YOUR LIFE!" |
| Quote: | Jasmine. She's killing me with jasmine. (in a good way.) How do girls know how to smell just right? The strawberry in her hair. The jasmmine on her skin. The vanilla on her feet. She's got it all on just right.
I know there's more to a woman than smell. I know. But with my unique perspective, my view of the world through blind eyes and enhanced senses... smell is a big, big part of it.
Even her heartbeat is elegant. She's nervous -- emberrassed bug her posture doesn't give her away. She's a blind woman --- so posture isn't something practiced -- it's something inherent.
I let my radar fill in the blanks. So I can "see" what my other senses can't give me. I feel her form. Her silky, shiny hair. Her precious, pale skin.
I realize that I'm doing that thing again where I am so lost in my little world of extra sensory perceptions, that I'm not paying attention to what is actually going on in the room. I am not listening to her and I have become shockingly aware that I have no idea how much time has gone by. |
| Quote: | [to Luke Cage:]
"You think I like this? I hate this!! You think I went to bed one night and said: 'Please Lord-- please let me drown in a sea of compromise so thick and convoluted that I don't even know what the right thing to do is anymore.'?
"And I come to you for help... and you call me names. Big talk, Luke. It was your choice to go public. Your choice. Mr. Unbreakable Skin. Mr. Hero for Hire who never leaves his neighborhood." |
| Quote: | 'Keep my neighborhood clean.'
'Keep my neighborhood clean?'
I KNOW!!
I've been doing it for as long as I can remember.
Luke, in his self-righteous diatribe-- trying to psyche me up-- remind me of what I can do--
And it did psyche me up enough to go out and take care of these-- these cliches.
But I've been doing this for too long to fool myself into thinking that I'm doing anything permanent. Not at this level. These kids will find another score tonight-- ironically to take the edge off this shocking moment of violence.
I know the kind of man who pulls these idiots' strings. I know how far up the money falls! I know what kind of man killed my father. It was one thing when I didn't know -- but now that I do --
"CHANGE YOUR LIFE!!"
How can I go back to just this?
It's hollow.
It's fake.
It's-- not-- enough.
It's-- not-- enough. |
| Quote: | I can't believe this. I just can't-- the police are here! In front of my house!! Cops are here to see me-- to take me in. Damn it!
What did I do? What didn't I think of??
Did the Owl do something? Did I miss one of the hidden recording devices in his-- oh, this is a nightmare!
And right in front of Milla.
I was an idiot to think I could have this. I was an idiot. I don't deserve her.
I don't deserve to be happy. |
| Quote: | I want to scream.
I want to turn around and scream behind me: I can hear you!!
The two detectives who brought me here, their captain, and that D.A. are behind the two-way mirror talking about me. Watching me.
Of course, they don't know I can hear-- Every-- Word-- They-- Are-- Saying!
I can hear their fillings clacking. I can hear the tiny spit bubbles in the side of their mouth pop while they talk.
They stand there and watch me like a zoo animal. They drink their stale coffee and they laugh at me.
They want me to crack. They want me to act guilty.
I just want to scream. |
| Quote: | [when facing Typhoid]
This had to happen! I can't just sit here and keep up appearances-- I can't hide behind my secret identity if it means these peoples-- I can't just let this happen! |
| Quote: | "I went looking for you, Lester. Did you know that? While back-- I decided I was going to find you and kill you in your sleep. I was going to kill you and no one would ever know I did it.
"And in looking for you, I finally found out all about the big mystery that is you. Your secret, secret origin. And I know why it's a secret. It's pathetic!! I know about your prostitute of a mommy and how you don't even know who your daddy is-- I know what happened to you in high school-- I know!!
"And after finding out your entire pathetic, uninteresting story-- I know why-- I know why you keep coming around here, Lester!! You keep coming around here because you want me to put you out of your misery!
"Because you don't have the guts to do it yourself!!
"But I'm not going to do it!! You hear me?!! I'm not getting sucked into your nightmare!! Because I just don't care!!
"You hear me, Lester, I don't care about you!! No one cares! You're an animal!! Your mommy doesn't care. Your daddy never cared!!!
"No one cares if you live or die!! You mean nothing!! You are nothing!
"What is this? Huh? What is this, a tattoo on your head? You psycho!!
"What is this supposed to be? Your logo? Your supercool bad ass logo?"
Bullseye: "It's your--"
"Shut up, animal!!
"you want my attention-- I'll give you my attention. I'll give you some meaning. I'LL GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!!
"THIS CIRCLE... IS FOR ELEKTRA!!!
"And this circle... is for KAREN!!!
"And this center point right here... is for when you finally realize that no one cares!!
"That I don't care about you!!
"That Kingpin USED you!!
"That you serve no purpose in this world!!
"That you mean NOTHING!!
"And when you FINALLY realize how pathetic and digusting you REALLY are... and you FINALLY have the GUTS to do what you are begging ME to do FOR you--
"WHEN YOU FINALLY HAVE THE GUTS TO END YOUR MISERABLE EXISTENCE...!!
"HERE!!
"AIM TRUE.
"Aim to kill." |
| Quote: | He'll never stop. He'll never quit. He's an animal.
No. No. Animals learn. he's a force of nature. A hurricane, a monsoon. (I broke my pinky finger.) He just keeps coming and coming.
NO!!! No. He's just a man. But he won't-- he won't stop. He'll never stop.
He'll keep murdering-- and hurting.
And taking.
And taking and taking and taking.
He thinks he's entitled. He thinks he deserves everything he takes... and he will never stop.
And if after all of this-- if after everything that has happened to him-- he still won't stop-- What will finally end this? What do I have to do?? How many times do I have to fight this fight?
Outsmart him? Overpower him? Fight him? Cut him? Bruise him? How many more times?!!
How many times am I supposed to fight this fight before something actually changes? (I can't breathe.)
How many times do I have to do this for it to have meaning? (my heart.)
<lots and lots of fighting>
"How many times..." |
Ok, I'm going to have to stop there (even though I've only gotten as far as the end of "Hardcore") because I still have to clean for my parents' visit. But I hope that my point is made.
| blacktyphoid wrote: | | Btw, when I say he's a player in the context that I state, I don't mean it in a derogatory way. He's not a bad man; but, to me, he isn't a confused man either. I think calling Matt Murdock "confused", as you do, as his primary reason for doing the contradictory things he did during this entire Bendis run, doesn't give him the credit he justly deserves. |
Again, I think I'm going to have to take the opposite view. Honestly, I think that it's actually your view that's not giving Matt the credit he deserves. It paints him as uncaring, selfish, and it implies that he views the public and the authorities as obstacles in his path, rather than as people he'd like to consider to be on his own side.
Mostly, though, I think that the biggest indication of Matt's strength is that he can carry so much pain and trauma and darkness and confusion inside of him... and yet he still tries to save everybody else. |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | jumonji wrote: | | I agree with you on this Katerine. Despite DD's considerable skill, he can't control every single variable, and he certainly can miss. Not even he has that amount of control in a very stressful situation to do any significant amount of thinking and aiming while deflecting a bullet. |
So, he couldn't control all variables, wasn't skilled enough and there was the possibility that with that deflection Matt could have hit the vicinities and yet still acted on purpose, is this what we're trying to say?
That later on he thought "how lucky, I hit him in the middle forehead, that was neat"? Seems a little stretched for an interpretation.
It's as if we were searching for an excuse... |
Not at all Francesco. Since I have zero problems with DD killing this guy, I'm not trying to come up with an excuse at all. He may very well have tried to kill him. What I disagree with is the idea that DD is infallible. 
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Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | Katerine, Matt hit him right in the middle of the forehead. If we say that he did so because otherwise he could've hit the girl, just because we want to impose that there was no other way, I think that we are a bit cheating ourselves.
I think it's more fair to the character if we admit that he got tired of trying to appease his foe, and this, put together with the fact that the guy was a ruthless killer who was into a circle of children prostitution and who had just shot him, made him decide to kill him. |
It appears we've been arguing semantics.
I don't disagree that Matt decided to kill him. I just don't believe that Matt wanted to kill him, or that he went there with the intention of killing him, or that the killing was anything other than self-defense. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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This is where I disagree. After the last warning, Matt wanted to kill him.
At that point it was still possible for him to save Mickey without killing him. And yet he killed him. |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Katerine wrote: | | Again, I think I'm going to have to take the opposite view. Honestly, I think that it's actually your view that's not giving Matt the credit he deserves. It paints him as uncaring, selfish, and it implies that he views the public and the authorities as obstacles in his path, rather than as people he'd like to consider to be on his own side. |
Touche! Thank you, Katerine, for this great exchange. It's been a pleasure delving into this exchange with you.
| Katerine wrote: |
Mostly, though, I think that the biggest indication of Matt's strength is that he can carry so much pain and trauma and darkness and confusion inside of him... and yet he still tries to save everybody else. |
YES! On this point, we can conclude our exchange by absolutely agreeing with each other.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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I've stayed away from this thread mainly because I have serious problems with the premise. Debating what Matt Murdock THE "REAL" PERSON is "actually" like makes about as much sense as debating what Matt Murdock the banana is like. He's not a banana and he's not a real person.
I vaguely understand the desire to identify with Matt as a "realish" person to in some way have a "deeper" emotional connection with him. The problem is that he's not real so any emotional response you get out of such an approach would be 1. based on a lie and 2. nothing more than massive self delusion.
All that said: if you want to have the debate. Fine. That's cool. Really.
Although, now it's gone a little too far. Look, Matt didn't want to kill the guy in MWF or desire to kill him or whatever. Frank Miller did. He wanted to write that scene. You can debate the highly fictional meta-issue if you want but comon. I think it's more fun to debate a writer's approach to a character or idea. At least it's real.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Edited:
Okay, but what do we do with that? Can we accept it as a thing the character "Matt Murdock" did or shall we refuse it? |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | Edited:
Okay, but what do we do with that? Can we accept it as a thing the character "Matt Murdock" did or shall we refuse it? |
Okay, I realize I'm not being very helpful but I think what we can do with it is say that "In MWF Matt killed a guy by reflecting a bullet back at him and hitting him right between the eyes".
See, in terms of MWF, in terms of Miller's story, I agree with Francesco. Matt meant to kill that guy. Matt meant to hit him between the eyes. After all the warnings he had had enough and he wanted to kill the guy and that's just what he did. It's darker than the Matt we usually see, sure, but to me, there's no way you can seriously read that scene and come away with anything other than "Matt stone cold killed that dude".
The problems only start when you start trying to reconile MWF Matt with all the other Matts throughout DD history. The big bad secret is that all the Matts ever produced just don't make sense together as a whole. They just don't. The Matt that Miller originally wrote would never kill someone (other than vague drowning...Nocenti's Matt might....Chichester's wouldn't....Miller's revised Matt did. Any attempt to be like "what Matt did in #321 doesn't make sense in light of his statements in #7" just don't make sense.
So, yes, in MWF Matt stone cold killed someone.
Which isn't that bad cuz Elektra killed, like, a bunch of people just for fun.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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It's no secret that Miller always wanted Matt to kill a bad guy. It was Jim Shooter, in those early days, that instructed Miller not to do so. And, Miller would have been wrong to change Matt's character to this.
Fact is Matt did not murder Larks. Larks told Matt he was going to kill the girl. Matt KNOWS he's not lying. Matt keeps warning Larks to stop shooting at him (Matt, in self defense blocking the bullets). Matt knows Larks is getting desperate as he's running out of bullets. No doubt that last one meant for the girl since Matt did not back off. Matt can't risk deflecting a bullet that only wounds, as Larks can easlily shoot the girl in anger. One option left. End the threat to both him and the helpless girl (just as Matt ended the helicoter pilot's rampage in BA).
Matt is not a murder. Plain and simple.
rgj
p.s. Turth be told, MWF wasn't that great. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | It's no secret that Miller always wanted Matt to kill a bad guy. It was Jim Shooter, in those early days, that instructed Miller not to do so. And, Miller would have been wrong to change Matt's character to this.
Fact is Matt did not murder Larks. Larks told Matt he was going to kill the girl. Matt KNOWS he's not lying. Matt keeps warning Larks to stop shooting at him (Matt, in self defense blocking the bullets). Matt knows Larks is getting desperate as he's running out of bullets. No doubt that last one meant for the girl since Matt did not back off. Matt can't risk deflecting a bullet that only wounds, as Larks can easlily shoot the girl in anger. One option left. End the threat to both him and the helpless girl (just as Matt ended the helicoter pilot's rampage in BA).
Matt is not a murder. Plain and simple.
rgj
p.s. Turth be told, MWF wasn't that great. |
I honestly don't know why everyone is resisting this so much. Really? you think Matt could hit the guy between the eyes but not in such a way as to disable is ability to shoot (i.e., his shoulder, his hand, the gun, his elbow...etc.)?
Look if you don't like Matt killing and you don't like MWF that's fine (it really is. I love MWF but I super understand why people don't). Just don't try to twist the story into something you want it to be rather than something it is.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Well said, Castle. I totally agree. |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jc wrote: | I honestly don't know why everyone is resisting this so much. Really? you think Matt could hit the guy between the eyes but not in such a way as to disable is ability to shoot (i.e., his shoulder, his hand, the gun, his elbow...etc.)?
Look if you don't like Matt killing and you don't like MWF that's fine (it really is. I love MWF but I super understand why people don't). Just don't try to twist the story into something you want it to be rather than something it is. |
It's not just about Matt redireting the bullet at the gun or shoulder or whatever. Larks had the gun in one hand and the girls throat in the other (or around his arm). Anything but a direct kill could lead to the girls death.
Look, I'll grant you that there is no thought balloon, or narrative by Miller where Matt is saying, "Gee, I better make this a kill between the eyes, or this girl is dead." Or. "I better kill him before one of those bullets actually hits me." Sure, that wasnt' there. But, neither was "I'm going to kill you, you $#!&." You can't say Matt's actions weren't in self defense. You can't. Matt ended a threat to his person and to the girl.
Look, if Miller wanted a no doubt DD movie kill, he could have written it clear cut. But, he didn't.
If you think Matt had a Punisher moment, you're entitled to it, I guess. But, this scene, in no way makes Matt a murderer. Just as a police sniper isn't one either if he goes for the kill shot.
rgj
p.s. I don't "dislike" MWF because of the Larks kill--heck, I didn't even say i disliked it. I actually think Miller's tale a little weak because of his retcon on Elektra, basically turning her into Typhoid Mary (a much better character). |
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