Daredevil Message Board

[Francesco]

Tell it like it is, Stanley.

Edit: Whoops. I opened another page.

[jumonji]

[james castle]

[Stanley]

What's ridiculous is that every time you look at this page, you quickly glance over it. That's a damn shame.

Born Again's about a number of things. It's not even ~about~ religion; religion is just a theme in which Miller works. It's not just about not giving up, it's about returning to what's important.

...I can't help but notice that, as is typical, you've yet to find any sort of literary evidence to help your viewpoint. Aren't you the one that's supposed to be acting like a lawyer around here?

Now that's something worth laughing about.

[rgj]

[Francesco]

[james castle]

[train]

[Stanley]

"A man without hope is a man without fear" does NOTHING to further JC's viewpoint that God doesn't aid Matt's recovery.

This quote is cool, and on the back of some graphic novel collections, but not the point. If the point of the arc really is this, then the point of the arc is that due to the Kingpin, Matt is fearless.

But Matt was never really fearless--if so, he wouldn't be afraid of Karen dying, or Hell's Kitchen being destroyed, or Ben Urich being killed by Lois, etc.

Only when you are deprived of everything you care about are you fearless. Kingpin did take away Matt's hope, but he also indirectly reminded Matt of what was important. Due to Matt's fear of his neighborhood going to hell and his friends possibly getting killed, the hero emerges to defend what he cares about.

To me, the go-to quote was always there to try and legitimize a lame tagline dreamt up by Stan Lee. A real Man Without Fear wouldn't weigh the consequences of his actions. (And a real Man Without Fear wouldn't have dual identities.)

Plus, you're telling me that by hanging your hat on this line, you believe our hero has no hope--essentially making him a nihilist.

...Then what's his fighting all about?

One line uttered by the Kingpin has no bearing on Matt's recovery. So you bring 'literary evidence' that really has no bearing on the topic at hand. Nobody ever said religion was the point of Born Again, just that God saved Matt.

+5 for bashing the movie, -5 for sticking to a doomed point in a manner similar to that of an ex-girlfriend.

[jumonji]

Just briefly on the point of Born Again: I wasn't aware that stories were limited to only having one point or one theme. Born Again is about a lot of things, which suits a complex character like DD just fine. I mean, the guy himself is a living (well, in the Marvel U sense) dichotomy on at least three or four different levels.

[james castle]

Okay, fine, so you made me actually break out Born Again and have a look. Here's some neat stuff:

DID YOU KNOW: that god saves Matt twice? It's true! If you look at the title page of Born Again (the issue, not the run) you'll see Matt lying there and Maggie saying "Praise God....He's Alive!". This is BEFORE her prayer. Obviously she's praising god for saving Matt. And we know god did it because Maggie says he did. That's how fiction works. When a character says something for their point of view it becomes objective truth.

[As a side note, I think rgj should take a special look at that page. Above he worries about "how in the world did Matt get better?". HINT: medical attention provided by the nuns or whoever else put the bandages on him. Or did god do that to?]

"Wait, wait, wait" says rgj and Stanley (at once in perfect harmony) "you're making our point sound silly. of course god wasn't invovled the first time. he's only involved after the prayer. the first time one has a couple lines. the second time has a full page!".

Well, not really. The prayer does not take up a whole page. Not that that makes a big difference. What does make a big difference is what page it's on. If you go look at it you'll notice that the "Matt has a fever" bit is told along side the "Ben freaks out about hearing a cop die" bit and "Karen talks to Foggy bit". It is in no way central. Is anyone really saying that Miller wanted something as big as devine intervention to just sort of drift in?

On a related note: go back and read the issue. Matt is lying on the bed. Then he tries to get up and appears to be in fine health. Then he relapses into a fever. Then Maggie prays. Then his fever breaks. Again, you're honestly saying that Miller wrote in devine intervention as a cure for a relapse? Really?

As for Thor: the reason I have no problem with the Norse God of Thunder being in the book is because he's IN THE BOOK. I know Americans love to find the Christian God virtually everywhere (including various food stuffs) but wishing he were in Born Again when he isn't is just silly. Thor is there. JC's daddy is not.

As for why it ruins Born Again: doing anything with the "help" of an omnipresent and omnipotent being isn't very impressive at all really.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Stanley]

This one time, I had pneumonia after I had allergies.

People can get sick twice. Even religious zealots differentiate between when God steps in and when God doesn't have to.

[james castle]

[Francesco]

Intervention of God in Born Again? I wouldn't know.
The page with sister Maggie praying is undoubtly a touching moment. One of the most special moments in the storyarc, I might add.

But what makes it special is not the supposed intervention of god.

It's the dramatical depiction of this religious woman, devotely praying her god to save a man who is on the brink of death.
Her words. Her desperate plea. Her faith. Her knowledge that Matt, in his struggle to protect the weak and fighting for justice, can be considered as servant of god (a spear of light in his hand, she says).

What strikes us whenever we read those pages is not the possibility that God might have intervened. It's the strenght of Maggie's prayer.

Also, that page is certainly mirable, but as Castle said. there are way more important themes in that storyline.

[james castle]