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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Just some general thoughts here that have come to mind since I last posted (and because I've been going through a LOT of older Daredevil issue lately).
First off, regarding Stan Lee: The guy came up with a great idea for a hero and, as others have mentioned, he deserves some credit for doing something with Daredevil that was unprecedented in superhero comics. He did, however, chicken out quite a bit in my opinion. Nearly every other writer has shown DD's blindness more respect that Stan Lee did. In fact, Stan Lee went out of his way to let the reader know that Matt was better than any sighted man at everything (even though logic would dictate that this simply cannot be true), and he often did so several times every issue. With Stan Lee's Daredevil, the blindness became almost entirely a gimmick and a clever disguise with no negative consequences whatsoever. I think most readers today would agree with me that Stan took things way too far in the "overcompensating" department.
What's interesting about this is that the character started out having powers that were considerably less impressive than they are today, and his weaknesses were very apparent in the first few issues. However, in issue #8, Daredevil was given a rather substantial power upgrade, particularly to his radar sense. Before issue #6 or 7, Matt couldn't actually "see" anything with the radar sense. He could physically feel being close to solid objects, but that was it. I'm not going to argue with some aspects of the power upgrade. In fact, having the radar give him some form of vision analogue (though incomplete) strikes me as much more realistic given what he can actually do.
However, with this power upgrade came the complete denial of any form of disability whatsoever. This unwillingness to portray any kind of physical weakness when it comes to Daredevil has more or less (depending on the writer) continued to the present day, though it's been far less extreme than it was in the early days. So what has Daredevil's blindness been used for? Well, it's a plot device when it's convenient, and blatantly ignored when it's inconvenient. Metaphorical uses of DD's blindness are everywhere and countless issue titles play on this "gimmick," which is basically what it's been for most of the history of the book.
And I think that's what it comes down to for me personally. I would like to see it treated more as a reality (which it would be, despite his largely compensatory abilities) and less as a gimmick to be pulled out when the writer is trying to make a point. Still, I would say that the appeal of the character lies beyond this physical trait, and the book would not have been nearly as good if writers had given it undue focus instead of telling good stories. However, I also believe that the book would have been even better if the actual ramifications of DD's blindness had not been "underplayed" to the extent that they have been. What I'm talking about here wouldn't even consitute major changes to anything. My vision of how this could have been done would not require that hardly a single storyline be changed in any way. There is not one of the many wonderful stories about this great and multi-faceted character that couldn't have been told while still giving this aspect of his life the respect it deserved. I believe the character would have been an even stronger and more interesting one for it.
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Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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I ran across this link to a blog post http://lancemannion.typepad.com/lance_mannion/2008/03/tossing-a-footb.html
that speaks to degrees of blindness, and how people interpret what they actually see. Very interesting, and I thought somewhat appropriate to this discussion.
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Punisher74
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 103
Location: Carbondale, Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | At the risk of sounding negative again: this is one of the reasons I can't stand Stan Lee. Any time he talks about Daredevil Stan The Man goes off about how Matt is disabled and THAT'S what makes him a great hero. Which is, of course, complete nonsense. As I understand it, the "problem" with being blind is that you can't see. But it's not that you can't see, it's that you can't sense things. Blindness is a disability because those who are blind are not able to tell what's around them as easily as people who have sight. Of course Matt can tell what's around him much, much better than anyone else. He can't "see" what's in front of his eyes but he can "see" what's all around him...for blocks and blocks. He's a great deal more abled than anyone else. Once again Stan misses the point entirely. |
But Stan Lee is 80 years old or older and doesn't think like he used to.
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Ratchet
Flying Blind
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What's interesting about this is that the character started out having powers that were considerably less impressive than they are today, and his weaknesses were very apparent in the first few issues. However, in issue #8, Daredevil was given a rather substantial power upgrade, particularly to his radar sense. Before issue #6 or 7, Matt couldn't actually "see" anything with the radar sense. He could physically feel being close to solid objects, but that was it. I'm not going to argue with some aspects of the power upgrade. In fact, having the radar give him some form of vision analogue (though incomplete) strikes me as much more realistic given what he can actually do. |
There have been a number of depictions of Matt's radar over the decades, but the whole outlining-everything-with-my-radar-sense is my least favorite. I'm not denying the validity of this depiction--too many instances exist in the books--it just hasn't sat well with me for the longest time now. Why? Because outlining everything with his radar seems too much like some form of vision, and it decreases the stakes every time he jumps across the cityscape. I mean, the words "he dwells in eternal darkness" seem to be undermined to an extent because he's getting these outlines every time. Sure, they're colorless outlines, but when I think of dwelling in eternal darkness, I don't conjure up outlines of surrounding objects.
So the depiction of his radar that I like is when he does not get outlines and virtual images. He simply senses where objects are around him (apart from the use of his heightened senses, making his radar a separate sense). In interviews during his original run on the title, Miller had said that he was working on eventually depicting the radar without the outlines. He favored the notion of sensing where objects are like high-level practitioners of ninjutsu would when they're blindfolded. This take appeals to me because of DD's considerable martial arts training. It's the kind of tweaking that feels natural. In fact, you can see a few things from this take when reading some of the final issues of Miller's original run and Man Without Fear. He doesn't go out of his way to say that DD no longer receives outlines--Marvel editorial would slam the brakes on that, I imagine--but I think that's where Miller was going with the story in which he had Matt lose his radar and work on getting it back.
What’s Daredevil’s world like? Aside from his remaining, enhanced senses and radar, it’s just one endless, pitch-black night. Englehart nailed it when he began his one and only issue with a splash of a completely black panel. No fancy-shmancy outlines required. |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Ratchet wrote: | | There have been a number of depictions of Matt's radar over the decades, but the whole outlining-everything-with-my-radar-sense is my least favorite. I'm not denying the validity of this depiction--too many instances exist in the books--it just hasn't sat well with me for the longest time now. Why? Because outlining everything with his radar seems too much like some form of vision, and it decreases the stakes every time he jumps across the cityscape. I mean, the words "he dwells in eternal darkness" seem to be undermined to an extent because he's getting these outlines every time. Sure, they're colorless outlines, but when I think of dwelling in eternal darkness, I don't conjure up outlines of surrounding objects. |
I kind of agree and I don't. In a sense, I think the radar sense has to be some form of vision analogue (with "analogue" being the operative word here) in that it accomplishes some of the same things that vision does, i.e. perceiving the extent of objects that are physically removed from the observer. On the other hand, the very same thing could be said for echolocation (even the rare form of echolocation that a handful of blind real life humans have been able to develop). Any images Daredevil is getting would then have to be synthesized by his brain based on the input he's getting, which could very well be entirely tactile and not really visual at all. Where I totally agree is that I feel many writers write the radar too much like vision, and 20/20 vision at that. I find the idea the he can so readily identify even half the things he's "looking" at to be highly questionable, especially since people generally use a lot of color information to identify things. Also, lots of things are not readily identifiable by sound or scent either, regardless of how well you can hear or smell.
| Ratchet wrote: | | So the depiction of his radar that I like is when he does not get outlines and virtual images. He simply senses where objects are around him (apart from the use of his heightened senses, making his radar a separate sense). In interviews during his original run on the title, Miller had said that he was working on eventually depicting the radar without the outlines. He favored the notion of sensing where objects are like high-level practitioners of ninjutsu would when they're blindfolded. This take appeals to me because of DD's considerable martial arts training. It's the kind of tweaking that feels natural. In fact, you can see a few things from this take when reading some of the final issues of Miller's original run and Man Without Fear. He doesn't go out of his way to say that DD no longer receives outlines--Marvel editorial would slam the brakes on that, I imagine--but I think that's where Miller was going with the story in which he had Matt lose his radar and work on getting it back. |
Very interesting! Thanks for the info.
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think that people are failing to realize that the images (or outlines) Matt "sees" are only as good as his ability to CONCENTRATE on them. In order for him to "see" these images that are actively reflected back at him he must be focused. One of his "powers" is the ability to SIFT though these images. Without concentration these 360 degree images don't mean a thing. Also, Matt must balance the reflected radar waves with his other heightned senses. Matt gets cut with a blade, the pain will hinder his ability to concentate on the radar, just as Chichester once wrote.
Miller did the ninjitsu/no radar/heightned senses only thing in his inital run. I think this is basically how Stick operates, only Stick doesn't have the HEIGHTENED senses. Miller clearly showed that Matt could operate with senses alone, but he clearly stated Matt was not as effective.
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | I think that people are failing to realize that the images (or outlines) Matt "sees" are only as good as his ability to CONCENTRATE on them. In order for him to "see" these images that are actively reflected back at him he must be focused. One of his "powers" is the ability to SIFT though these images. Without concentration these 360 degree images don't mean a thing. Also, Matt must balance the reflected radar waves with his other heightned senses. Matt gets cut with a blade, the pain will hinder his ability to concentate on the radar, just as Chichester once wrote. |
I think this depends on the specific writer, but I agree with you that most writers seem to portray the radar this way, and that makes sense to me since it's really the only way for other input to cancel out the radar (my eyes don't stop working if someone holds a foghorn to my ear...). Also, the radar images are often described as an afterthought, after he has already tapped the other senses for information, which also strengthens this theory. This seems to be how Brubaker is writing it to, with Matt occasionally missing something in plain "sight" at first. So I essentially agree with you, but I'd also say it depends on the writer, and the amount of disturbance that will throw him off seems to depend more on the plot than anythings else. I'd love some more consistency here, but oh well.
| rgj wrote: | | Miller did the ninjitsu/no radar/heightned senses only thing in his inital run. I think this is basically how Stick operates, only Stick doesn't have the HEIGHTENED senses. Miller clearly showed that Matt could operate with senses alone, but he clearly stated Matt was not as effective. |
I'll admit to being a little annoyed by just how good he was at fighting ninjas without his radar. It kind of makes you wonder what he really needs it for in the first place. Walking down the street unaided? Sure, but ninjas? Interestingly, some Marvel source (I can't remember which one), claimed that Stick's proximity sense was more acute than DD's radar.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Ratchet wrote: |
There have been a number of depictions of Matt's radar over the decades, but the whole outlining-everything-with-my-radar-sense is my least favorite. I'm not denying the validity of this depiction--too many instances exist in the books--it just hasn't sat well with me for the longest time now. Why? Because outlining everything with his radar seems too much like some form of vision, and it decreases the stakes every time he jumps across the cityscape. I mean, the words "he dwells in eternal darkness" seem to be undermined to an extent because he's getting these outlines every time. Sure, they're colorless outlines, but when I think of dwelling in eternal darkness, I don't conjure up outlines of surrounding objects.
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The problem with any depiction of Daredevil's radar sense is that it necessarily has to be something that can depicted, i.e. something visual. And yet the radar sense is not something visual.
Matt is blind. He doesn't see anything.
Any depiction of the radar sense, therefore, can only be a visual approximation of it, but cannot, by any means, be the reality of it (as it is defined).
Sure, there are depictions I like more than others, but it's not a matter of verisimilitude to me (it's rather a matter of artistic appeal).
When I'm reading the comic and the artist puts a rendition of Matt's radar sense, I always keep in mind that Matt is not having any visual input. He's just "sensing" what's around him, and the artist is representing it that way.
Therefore, I don't expect any depiction to be more realistic than another (or more coherent with a given definition of "radar sense"). |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Look, writer interpretations or not,
Daredevil's radar sense has been defined. It is it's own entity divorced from his other heightened senses. His brain emits waves. They bounce off objects in his environment and are reflected back to him. And, he recieves "images" or "outlines" that his brian can interpret. Not his eyes. His brain. So, yes, he does live in eternal "darkness." Just as a bat can fly in pitch darkness and still find food to eat in mid air.
When DD jumps off a rooftop and lassos a flagpole (sans flag), its the "image" or "outline" that his radar picked up that made it possible. He didn't hear the pole. He didn't taste it. He didn't touch it. He didn't smell it. And, guess what, he didn't "see" it. It's his radar sense.
Now, I'm not saying that Matt can't get some sort of rudimentary idea of his environment with his senses alone. Even everyday blind people can do that.
The radar sense didn't really get blurred until the terrible Daredevil movie where MSJ said that his radar is the result of his super hearing.
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Francesco
Underboss
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | Look, writer interpretations or not,
Daredevil's radar sense has been defined. |
Sure. I didn't say it hasn't.
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And, he recieves "images" or "outlines" that his brian can interpret. Not his eyes. His brain. So, yes, he does live in eternal "darkness." |
I completely agree. |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | Look, writer interpretations or not,
Daredevil's radar sense has been defined. It is it's own entity divorced from his other heightened senses. His brain emits waves. They bounce off objects in his environment and are reflected back to him. And, he recieves "images" or "outlines" that his brian can interpret. Not his eyes. His brain. So, yes, he does live in eternal "darkness." Just as a bat can fly in pitch darkness and still find food to eat in mid air. |
I agree completely, and I don't think anyone was challenging whether DD has a radar sense that is separate from his other senses. The only thing here I would take issue with (as I have in the past) is that DD's radar has been consistently protrayed across the board. Sometimes it seems like writers don't know what the heck to do with it, and they will tune it up and down to suit their needs, even going as far as outright cheating, if I may call it that.
| rgj wrote: | | The radar sense didn't really get blurred until the terrible Daredevil movie where MSJ said that his radar is the result of his super hearing. |
I actually would say it was plenty blurred before then (due to writers portraying it in very different ways), but I see your point in that it was never passive sonar until then. I don't know what the heck it was under Bendis or even whether that started before or after the movie, but I generally had big problems with how Bendis wrote DD's senses. I totally liked Bendis's run in most other respects, and I even think he wrote the senses very poetically but I had plenty of WTF moments while reading his stories. Matt smelling the saline solution in people's (reporter's) eyes through his wall? Uh, no. I'm sure it sounds good, but that's so far beyond completely impossible that even Marvel U physics can't explain it. The same with him sitting on top of the court house and hearing what the jury is talking about in the basement. That sound stopped existing two floors ago (DD hearing things from far away in open air is a different story). I'm not saying that a little poetic license isn't warranted or that logic can't be stretched a little, but I personally prefer his senses (including the radar) to be superhuman rather than supernatural, in which case something akin to telepathy would be needed to explain them. Especially since DD can easily be written without breaking the laws of physics much, if at all, kind of like what Brubaker is doing now.
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rgj
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | DD's radar has been consistently protrayed across the board. Sometimes it seems like writers don't know what the heck to do with it, and they will tune it up and down to suit their needs, even going as far as outright cheating, if I may call it that. |
Yes, but that goes for all his senses. The writers always tune up or down aspects of his powers when it suits them. Look at Bru shutting down's DD's entire senses (blaming it on some apparent, bogus, rookie adreneline rush) when he confronts Danny Rand dressed as DD (just done for the purposes of having them fight).
My entire point is that Rachet's quote regarding the portrayal of DD's radar as: "but the whole outlining-everything-with-my-radar-sense is my least favorite" is dumbfounding because THAT is how his radar works. Rachet says it's too much like vison (of the eyes). What I've pointed out is that it's NOTHING like eye vision. Matt recieves signals from 360 degrees (and not of just a circle, but most likely a SPHERE). He must concentrate and sift though these images for his mind to make sense of them. That's an active effort that's more complicated than just opening your eye lids. And, to compound the problem of making sense of these "images," Matt must also balance/control/focus on his other senses which in their heightned state can be debilitating at times.
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Ratchet
Flying Blind
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My entire point is that Rachet's quote regarding the portrayal of DD's radar as: "but the whole outlining-everything-with-my-radar-sense is my least favorite" is dumbfounding because THAT is how his radar works. |
I'm not discounting this long-standing depiction of Daredevil's radar at all. In fact, I said as much in my first post. But there have been different interpretations of the radar over time, and I happen to favor one that isn't like that.
| Quote: | | Rachet says it's too much like vison (of the eyes). What I've pointed out is that it's NOTHING like eye vision. Matt recieves signals from 360 degrees (and not of just a circle, but most likely a SPHERE). He must concentrate and sift though these images for his mind to make sense of them. That's an active effort that's more complicated than just opening your eye lids. |
Regardless of the amount of effort Matt uses to emit signals from his brain and interpret the images/outlines he receives, the end result is something similar--in some respects--to vision, albeit a limited form. This ability at least partially shares some qualities with eyesight. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| Ratchet wrote: | | Quote: | | My entire point is that Rachet's quote regarding the portrayal of DD's radar as: "but the whole outlining-everything-with-my-radar-sense is my least favorite" is dumbfounding because THAT is how his radar works. |
I'm not discounting this long-standing depiction of Daredevil's radar at all. In fact, I said as much in my first post. But there have been different interpretations of the radar over time, and I happen to favor one that isn't like that.
| Quote: | | Rachet says it's too much like vison (of the eyes). What I've pointed out is that it's NOTHING like eye vision. Matt recieves signals from 360 degrees (and not of just a circle, but most likely a SPHERE). He must concentrate and sift though these images for his mind to make sense of them. That's an active effort that's more complicated than just opening your eye lids. |
Regardless of the amount of effort Matt uses to emit signals from his brain and interpret the images/outlines he receives, the end result is something similar--in some respects--to vision, albeit a limited form. This ability at least partially shares some qualities with eyesight. |
Now you've done it.
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rgj
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm not discounting this long-standing depiction of Daredevil's radar at all. In fact, I said as much in my first post. But there have been different interpretations of the radar over time, and I happen to favor one that isn't like that. |
So, who's interpretation do you like? And, what excactly is this interpetation of the "radar." MSJ is really the only person to actually define it as something else (his super hearing--that came out of his mouth on the DD HBO special preview and reinforced in the movie). I don't recall a writer coming along and saying THIS is how his RADAR works. Unlike say, the Marvel Universe Handbook and the character profiles printed in the Daredevil Omnibus.
| Quote: | | Regardless of the amount of effort Matt uses to emit signals from his brain and interpret the images/outlines he receives, the end result is something similar--in some respects--to vision, albeit a limited form. This ability at least partially shares some qualities with eyesight. |
Actually, in some respects it's BETTER than eyesight. That's why DD's powers make him cool. But, as I mentioned before, while his abilities can be better than eyesight, in the end it is NOT eyesight. His senses go wacky, and they often do, he really is an ordinary blind man. It's what makes scenes like Miller's DD/Bulls subway battle super cool.
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