Daredevil Message Board

[james castle]

So, I didn't buy the Miller Omnibus when it came out; a decision that I sorely regret. In a sad attempt to make up for the mistake I started buying the new trades that have just come out and am reading through Millers run for the first time in years (I have the floppies in my parents basement but haven't read this stuff in probably a decade).

Reading it with fresh eyes a few things have jumped out at me:

1. Everytime DD throws his club it bounces off a bunch of stuff and then bounces off the floor and up into DD's waiting hand. This pose is in nearly every issue. It's a super cool image but it happens sooooo much.
2. Miller really likes having bad dudes use chains as weapons.
3. Miller is also a really big fan of knives with studded finger guards. Apparently if there are no chains around, this is the second place weapon of choice.

Aside from that stuff, for the very first time it dawned on me how big the effect of Elektra's addition and origin has on the mythos. Well, in one specific way, anyway. See, in the version presented by Miller in his run Matt meets Elektra while he's in university and, more importantly while his father is still alive. The "problem" this raises is that when Matt tries to save Elektra and her father it's the very first time that he uses his powers in that way. In a way, THAT becomes DD's origin. He's wearing the mask, he throws his cane like a club, etc.. In this way, when his dad dies sometimes later, he's not using his powers to fight back for the first time, he's just doing it again. I think that has a really profound effect on the origin story. There's a long standing superhero trope in which the hero is forced into using his powers for the first time by a personal experience. By having Elektra's dad die before Matt's does, the personal experience that forces Matt to step up is saving Elektra, not his dad.

I think it's interesting that Miller actually changes this back in Man Without Fear. In that version (which I prefer) Matt's dad dies just before he enters university (Matt is either in his final year of high school or just finished). He does his thing hunting down the Fixer, etc., and then meets Elektra and has that experience. I think this version is much better as it returns "the moment" to Jack's death.

I'm reading through the volumes slowly. I can't remember how Stick gets shoehorned in but I'm eager to find out (all over again) how Miller tries to make sense of his sudden appearance.

On a side note, it's hilarious how fast everything happens in older comics. The amount of stuff that happens in Miller's first issue (where he introduces Elektra) is almost comical. My favorite is that Matt is hunting down that guy. Suddenly Elektra appears and knocks Matt out. Matt wakes up and then in a matter of minutes or even seconds figures out that his old college girlfriend is now an international assassin, that she isn't that bad because she bandaged him up but that he has to bring her to justice because laws are important. He is amazingly unphased by the fact that she's an assassin now.
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Francesco]

[jumonji]

Interesting points, JC. I'm actually pretty partial to "Miller continuity" pre MWOF, that is the old Stan Lee origin combined with the more plausible element of Stick (yeah, a mentor makes sense in every way), and the addition of Elektra.

I don't think that Matt appearing in disguise and attempting to save Elektra's father before the death of his own father necessarily takes the punch out of the later origin of Daredevil. Covering himself up and using the abilities he's honed is a far cry from the huge loss of innocence that comes with his father's murder and his subsequent decision to create a costumed alter ego.

Then again, I also find the idea of Jack dying later to make more sense, regardless of whether this happens before or after Elektra. When Jack decides not to throw the fight, he knows he's going to die. This decision seems more reasonable (not to mention responsible) if he knows Matt is close to graduation and will soon be able to have a well-paying job and provide for himself. Willingly leaving behind a pre-college teenage son just to prove a point - even at the cost of his pride - just strikes me as less heroic, I guess. Doing it when he knows Matt is close to making it on his own is more understandable to me. But with both versions being in continuity, sort of, I guess it's up to each reader to pick and choose.

Keep us posted on the rest of your Miller revisit, will ya.
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The Other Murdock Papers

[Jim B.]

The multiple choice origin for Matt does get kind of annoying. I really wish it was decided one way or another whether his Dad died when he was almost finished High School (Miller MWOF) or late when he was in college (Stan Lee) for the proper continuity. Personally I prefer the Stan Lee origin myself. I enjoy the origin story of Matt from MWOF but kind of see it as not really in continuity. Kind of like "All Star Daredevil" I guess?

The thing that I wonder about Matt sometimes is his motivation for actually being Daredevil. I know his father died and he wanted to get back at the people responsible for it and of course he chose the name that he was taunted with as a child but after that why did he keep on fighting crime and being DD? For fun? because he felt like he should? I guess some people might say that he is driven by the death of his father to do it but is he really? I don't see him as an obsessed person like Batman who is so consumed by the death of his parents even still that he does everything he can to stop people from being killed and stopping crime. Or even the Punisher that the death of his family took his need for stopping crime to a psychotic level. Matt seems more like Dick Grayson to me who honors and remembers his parents but isn't consumed by their deaths or does what he does because they died. Don't get me wrong I love the character but the question about why he is Daredevil is not all that clear IMO.
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"This isn't hell, but you can see it from here." -The Crow

[rgj]

Okay, I'm really getting confused here

Anyway, great points all.

I prefer the version where Matt is in college (almost finished) when his dad dies version. Of course, Miller complicates things with Eletkra--and it's been a while since I've read MWOF. Maybe I'll take a page from JC's book and re-read the stuff again.

I don't think anything changes if Matt used his skills, which he may have been learning from Stick, to try save Elektra and her dad. See, this action was more of a spontaneous, reflexive act on Matt's part. When Matt went after his dad's killers, it was more of a calcualted move. In fact, his experience with Elektra and her father may have given him some idea that he is skilled enough to be proactive in righting wrongs (for a lack of a better term).

It would be cool to see a "timeline" (with alternate Miller branch included) detailing
1) When Matt loses sight
2) Matt meets Stick and trains
3) Matt's dad dies--goes after killers
4) Matt enters college 4a) Matt's dad dies--goes after killers
5) Matt meets Elektra 5a) Matt's dad dies--goes after killers
6) Matt chooses to become Daredevil (and why?)
7) Matt and Foggy start their practice
6a) Matt chooses to become Daredevil (and why?).

Jim B makes a great point. Was his dad's death the only/real reason he kept being DD after his dad's killers were taken care of? Was it his realization of the limitation of his law degree? Perhaps his dad's death made him Daredevil. But could there have been something else that made him become a "hero." Do we have a missing story?

Interesting stuff here.

By the way, other things that kind of make Matt's origin kind of crazy is stuff like Bendis's run (remember, "the Kingpin before Wilson Fisk" story) and let's not forget the dreadful Battlin' Jack mini, which totally craps all over Battlin' Jack's motivation for not throwing his fight (My son punched me!, I'm doing it for Josie!).
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rgj

[jumonji]

[james castle]

Having re-read Miller's original version I much prefer his later, MWOF version.

I'm obviously making too much of it but to me it's really quite important that Matt use his powers for the first time in response to his dad's death. It's more than him just putting on his mask and using his cane/stick as a weapon. He uses his senses to pinpoint where everyone is, etc. It's the first time he puts it all together to do something good. The idea of him being like "they killed my dad. I'll just use my powers just like I did last year when I tried to save Elektra's dad". It just loses so much punch.

MWOF really makes a lot more sense. He reacts to his father's death but then stops superheroing for a plausible reason (he loses control). He tries to save Elektra's father but is still repressing feelings of loss of control. Finally, he comes in contact with the Kingpin and sees the bigger picture and becomes DD. Yeah, so my preferred time line is straight of of MWOF.

Stan's origin story is complete garbage and ought not considered.

As for the rest of the Miller run. I'm basically done. I just have to read Ressurection and that's it. The last couple things that have jumped out at me:

1. I love trades but I hate 'em. I'm a big fan of trade paperbacks (that's all I buy) but reading Miller's run really pulls into focus how bad the standard 6 issue story thing is. There's an enhanced sense of "anything can happen" in Miller's run. They're obviously flying by the seat of their pants a bit as stories last multiple issues or just one issue or half an issue. Without question, if written today the Elektra vs. Bullseye issue would have been an entire arc (1. Daredevil and Elektra Fight 2. Kingpin Hires Elektra 3. Bullseye Escapes 4. Elektra Tracks Foggy 5. Bullseye and Elektra Fight 6. Daredevil and Bullseye Fight). On the flipside, Miller has far longer plot strings in his run. The whole Healther story line is ever present but building throughout the whole run (even though it ends pretty bad).

2. Stick? Stick? It's amazing how little Stick is in the book. How many issue does he appear in? 3? 4? He's become such a major figure but between appearing out of nowhere and dying he really isn't around much. Same goes for Elektra but to a slightly lesser extent.

3. DD sure likes getting info by roughing up people in bars.

4. Miller is an awesome artist.
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Gloria]

[Gloria]

And I wouldn't call Miller's story "pace" as hilarious, quite the contrary, I think it was great value for money!

The "deconstructive" pace of many current comics actually reminds me of...

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=r09YF4OUwlw

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=VWfr9AEMXSs&feature=related

(only that the guy in those adverts is far more quicker than some narratives)
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

[Francesco]

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[jumonji]