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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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 Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject: Silly Daredevil villains |
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What should be done with the really silly villains in DD's rogues gallery, like Stilt-Man, Matador, Leap-Frog, etc. Should they be in limbo, used as comic relif or revamped into more dangerous villains?
It seems like Daredevil doesn't think much of Stilt-Man:
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1208/10/daredevil174.htm
However Waid has talked about using Matador as a serious villain in the future. |
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ToonOzAndy
Flying Blind
Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 8
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: |
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There is nothing wrong with villains such as Matador, Stiltman or Leapfrog. The problem lies with the writers on Daredevil, who have for the past 2 or 3 decades relied on Kingpin, Bullseye etc. to carry the bulk of the villainry. I welcome the return of these silver-age villains, along with fellow, CLASSIC DD villains such The Jester, Gladiator, Electro, as well as reviving dead villains such as Deathstalker, The Masked Marauder and The Copperhead !!!!!
What we need is vintage Marvel magic returned to this book, so that it remains fun. |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| ToonOzAndy wrote: | There is nothing wrong with villains such as Matador, Stiltman or Leapfrog. The problem lies with the writers on Daredevil, who have for the past 2 or 3 decades relied on Kingpin, Bullseye etc. to carry the bulk of the villainry. I welcome the return of these silver-age villains, along with fellow, CLASSIC DD villains such The Jester, Gladiator, Electro, as well as reviving dead villains such as Deathstalker, The Masked Marauder and The Copperhead !!!!!
What we need is vintage Marvel magic returned to this book, so that it remains fun. |
I agree with some of these choices. I'd love to see the like's of the Copperhead and Jester back in the book. If treated well, both could be made to work really well even today.
But as much as I loved, and still love, the original Lee/Colan stories, I'm not too sure about Leapfrog  |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ToonOzAndy wrote: | There is nothing wrong with villains such as Matador, Stiltman or Leapfrog. The problem lies with the writers on Daredevil, who have for the past 2 or 3 decades relied on Kingpin, Bullseye etc. to carry the bulk of the villainry. I welcome the return of these silver-age villains, along with fellow, CLASSIC DD villains such The Jester, Gladiator, Electro, as well as reviving dead villains such as Deathstalker, The Masked Marauder and The Copperhead !!!!!
What we need is vintage Marvel magic returned to this book, so that it remains fun. |
Well I think some villains are easier to make threatening then others. Purple Man, Mr. Hyde, Mr. Fear, even Owl now and again have been used as effective villains in the Marvel Universe. Fear or mind control is a cooler is a cooler gimmick then stilts. Also I think is now primarily a Spidey villain.
Stilt-Man has almost never been written as a serious threat in DD, since day one, just look at this list:
http://daredevil.dreamhosters.com/ttstilts.htm
Revamping Stilt-Man would be tricky, for a couple of reasons. First there is nothing really threatening or interesting about his personality, he is pretty one dimensional and not very interesting. There is nothing about his motives that very interesting and I don't think his motives make a lot sense. It seems like Wilbur would have been better off being a white collar criminal, instead of a super villain. There is nothing about his personality that makes him scary or sympathetic or even stand out.
I liked that part in the Bendis' where he quit, I liked that, it made sense. Maybe he could have been an interesting as a supporting character, but he became a super villain again and Punisher killed him, which was kinda of a waste. Now there are a few Stilt-Man copy cats running around, but they seem to have less personality then Wilbur does.
I'm not sure what you could do to make Stilt-Man work as a super villain, they tried to make him into a nasty skin head in the DD/Spidey mini series from 10 years, but that didn't work. Trying to make Stilt-Man into a more evil villain, doesn't work in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with some villains being comic relief. I think Wilbur Day could have been more interesting as a civilian rather then a super villain, but that ship has sailed.
Copperhead was last seen as an undead servant of Satan, so I'm not sure what they do with him.
With Masked Marauder, I would say I like the concept better then the character, Frank Farnum was never an interesting character. I would say kill of Farnum and have a new Masked Marauder trying to be the new top crime boss in NYC. You could make a good mystery story out of it.
| Pete wrote: |
I agree with some of these choices. I'd love to see the like's of the Copperhead and Jester back in the book. If treated well, both could be made to work really well even today.
But as much as I loved, and still love, the original Lee/Colan stories, I'm not too sure about Leapfrog |
The problem with Jester is, he is a poor man's Joker. He is Joker with less menace, less interesting motives, less personality and a worse costume. Its hard to get invested in a character when he feels like a poor man's version of another better character. I almost think it would have been better if he stayed retired after that story O'Neil did with him in the 80s.
But since he is a villain again, I few suggestions on what do with him. One make him different from the Joker, tell a story that couldn't tell with the Joker. Two, give the character a better personality and motives, maybe even a new back story. Jester's Silver age back story was extremely lame, he was someone who wanted to be a recognized actor, but didn't take acting lessons. He studied fencing and acrobatics, instead of acting and then is mad that people mocked his performance. Then he decides to be a villain.
What did he expect, that he would be a great actor with acting lessons and everyone would like his performance? Jonathan Powers could have solved his problems by just taking acting lessons in the first place. So I would retcon his background to say that he was a good actor, but his career was ruined by another actor, a egoistically jerk. The other actor becomes a huge a star, making popular, trashy action movies and Powers' career goes no where, leaving Powers to become more bitter. Having a story where Jester tries to murder this man who ruined his life and DD has to protect the egoistically jerk would put him in an interesting position. That's a Jester story that could be unique to Jester. |
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ToonOzAndy
Flying Blind
Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 8
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | ToonOzAndy wrote: | There is nothing wrong with villains such as Matador, Stiltman or Leapfrog. The problem lies with the writers on Daredevil, who have for the past 2 or 3 decades relied on Kingpin, Bullseye etc. to carry the bulk of the villainry. I welcome the return of these silver-age villains, along with fellow, CLASSIC DD villains such The Jester, Gladiator, Electro, as well as reviving dead villains such as Deathstalker, The Masked Marauder and The Copperhead !!!!!
What we need is vintage Marvel magic returned to this book, so that it remains fun. |
Well I think some villains are easier to make threatening then others. Purple Man, Mr. Hyde, Mr. Fear, even Owl now and again have been used as effective villains in the Marvel Universe. Fear or mind control is a cooler is a cooler gimmick then stilts. Also I think is now primarily a Spidey villain.
Stilt-Man has almost never been written as a serious threat in DD, since day one, just look at this list:
http://daredevil.dreamhosters.com/ttstilts.htm
Revamping Stilt-Man would be tricky, for a couple of reasons. First there is nothing really threatening or interesting about his personality, he is pretty one dimensional and not very interesting. There is nothing about his motives that very interesting and I don't think his motives make a lot sense. It seems like Wilbur would have been better off being a white collar criminal, instead of a super villain. There is nothing about his personality that makes him scary or sympathetic or even stand out.
I liked that part in the Bendis' where he quit, I liked that, it made sense. Maybe he could have been an interesting as a supporting character, but he became a super villain again and Punisher killed him, which was kinda of a waste. Now there are a few Stilt-Man copy cats running around, but they seem to have less personality then Wilbur does.
I'm not sure what you could do to make Stilt-Man work as a super villain, they tried to make him into a nasty skin head in the DD/Spidey mini series from 10 years, but that didn't work. Trying to make Stilt-Man into a more evil villain, doesn't work in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with some villains being comic relief. I think Wilbur Day could have been more interesting as a civilian rather then a super villain, but that ship has sailed.
Copperhead was last seen as an undead servant of Satan, so I'm not sure what they do with him.
With Masked Marauder, I would say I like the concept better then the character, Frank Farnum was never an interesting character. I would say kill of Farnum and have a new Masked Marauder trying to be the new top crime boss in NYC. You could make a good mystery story out of it.
| Pete wrote: |
I agree with some of these choices. I'd love to see the like's of the Copperhead and Jester back in the book. If treated well, both could be made to work really well even today.
But as much as I loved, and still love, the original Lee/Colan stories, I'm not too sure about Leapfrog |
The problem with Jester is, he is a poor man's Joker. He is Joker with less menace, less interesting motives, less personality and a worse costume. Its hard to get invested in a character when he feels like a poor man's version of another better character. I almost think it would have been better if he stayed retired after that story O'Neil did with him in the 80s.
But since he is a villain again, I few suggestions on what do with him. One make him different from the Joker, tell a story that couldn't tell with the Joker. Two, give the character a better personality and motives, maybe even a new back story. Jester's Silver age back story was extremely lame, he was someone who wanted to be a recognized actor, but didn't take acting lessons. He studied fencing and acrobatics, instead of acting and then is mad that people mocked his performance. Then he decides to be a villain.
What did he expect, that he would be a great actor with acting lessons and everyone would like his performance? Jonathan Powers could have solved his problems by just taking acting lessons in the first place. So I would retcon his background to say that he was a good actor, but his career was ruined by another actor, a egoistically jerk. The other actor becomes a huge a star, making popular, trashy action movies and Powers' career goes no where, leaving Powers to become more bitter. Having a story where Jester tries to murder this man who ruined his life and DD has to protect the egoistically jerk would put him in an interesting position. That's a Jester story that could be unique to Jester. |
I like many of the points you raise concerning these villains, and agree that a NEW Masked Marauder running crime in New York would create interesting storylines.
With regards to the Jester, yes he's bitter, but in a bizarre way I always saw him as a 'BULLSEYE' like protagonist for DD. I like JESTER'S costume, it makes the guy look sinister in the same way certain clowns have an evil look to them. I thought the Jester storyline in issues # 135, 136 and 137 were excellent, and with clever scripting the guy could be brought back as a deadly, and psychotic adversary.
Issues # 124 and 125 of daredevil are amongst the BEST issues ever of Daredevil, so please, PLEASE bring Copperhead back. This character is the perfect adversary in this book. |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ToonOzAndy wrote: | I like JESTER'S costume, it makes the guy look sinister in the same way certain clowns have an evil look to them. I thought the Jester storyline in issues # 135, 136 and 137 were excellent, and with clever scripting the guy could be brought back as a deadly, and psychotic adversary.
Issues # 124 and 125 of daredevil are amongst the BEST issues ever of Daredevil, so please, PLEASE bring Copperhead back. This character is the perfect adversary in this book. |
I agree about the Copperhead issues. I love the contrast of Janson's inks over first Colan, then Brown's, pencils. This beginning of the Wolfman run is also the beginning of a more 'street-level'-DD that was developed further by Shooter and then of course Miller. (Although I admit 'Mindwave and His Fearsome Think -Tank' guest starring Uri Geller isn't exactly 'street-level'  )
For me, #42, #44-46, and #137-137 are the only Jester stories worth the entrance fee. The guy is due a decent story-line! |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ToonOzAndy wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | | ToonOzAndy wrote: | There is nothing wrong with villains such as Matador, Stiltman or Leapfrog. The problem lies with the writers on Daredevil, who have for the past 2 or 3 decades relied on Kingpin, Bullseye etc. to carry the bulk of the villainry. I welcome the return of these silver-age villains, along with fellow, CLASSIC DD villains such The Jester, Gladiator, Electro, as well as reviving dead villains such as Deathstalker, The Masked Marauder and The Copperhead !!!!!
What we need is vintage Marvel magic returned to this book, so that it remains fun. |
Well I think some villains are easier to make threatening then others. Purple Man, Mr. Hyde, Mr. Fear, even Owl now and again have been used as effective villains in the Marvel Universe. Fear or mind control is a cooler is a cooler gimmick then stilts. Also I think is now primarily a Spidey villain.
Stilt-Man has almost never been written as a serious threat in DD, since day one, just look at this list:
http://daredevil.dreamhosters.com/ttstilts.htm
Revamping Stilt-Man would be tricky, for a couple of reasons. First there is nothing really threatening or interesting about his personality, he is pretty one dimensional and not very interesting. There is nothing about his motives that very interesting and I don't think his motives make a lot sense. It seems like Wilbur would have been better off being a white collar criminal, instead of a super villain. There is nothing about his personality that makes him scary or sympathetic or even stand out.
I liked that part in the Bendis' where he quit, I liked that, it made sense. Maybe he could have been an interesting as a supporting character, but he became a super villain again and Punisher killed him, which was kinda of a waste. Now there are a few Stilt-Man copy cats running around, but they seem to have less personality then Wilbur does.
I'm not sure what you could do to make Stilt-Man work as a super villain, they tried to make him into a nasty skin head in the DD/Spidey mini series from 10 years, but that didn't work. Trying to make Stilt-Man into a more evil villain, doesn't work in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with some villains being comic relief. I think Wilbur Day could have been more interesting as a civilian rather then a super villain, but that ship has sailed.
Copperhead was last seen as an undead servant of Satan, so I'm not sure what they do with him.
With Masked Marauder, I would say I like the concept better then the character, Frank Farnum was never an interesting character. I would say kill of Farnum and have a new Masked Marauder trying to be the new top crime boss in NYC. You could make a good mystery story out of it.
| Pete wrote: |
I agree with some of these choices. I'd love to see the like's of the Copperhead and Jester back in the book. If treated well, both could be made to work really well even today.
But as much as I loved, and still love, the original Lee/Colan stories, I'm not too sure about Leapfrog |
The problem with Jester is, he is a poor man's Joker. He is Joker with less menace, less interesting motives, less personality and a worse costume. Its hard to get invested in a character when he feels like a poor man's version of another better character. I almost think it would have been better if he stayed retired after that story O'Neil did with him in the 80s.
But since he is a villain again, I few suggestions on what do with him. One make him different from the Joker, tell a story that couldn't tell with the Joker. Two, give the character a better personality and motives, maybe even a new back story. Jester's Silver age back story was extremely lame, he was someone who wanted to be a recognized actor, but didn't take acting lessons. He studied fencing and acrobatics, instead of acting and then is mad that people mocked his performance. Then he decides to be a villain.
What did he expect, that he would be a great actor with acting lessons and everyone would like his performance? Jonathan Powers could have solved his problems by just taking acting lessons in the first place. So I would retcon his background to say that he was a good actor, but his career was ruined by another actor, a egoistically jerk. The other actor becomes a huge a star, making popular, trashy action movies and Powers' career goes no where, leaving Powers to become more bitter. Having a story where Jester tries to murder this man who ruined his life and DD has to protect the egoistically jerk would put him in an interesting position. That's a Jester story that could be unique to Jester. |
I like many of the points you raise concerning these villains, and agree that a NEW Masked Marauder running crime in New York would create interesting storylines.
With regards to the Jester, yes he's bitter, but in a bizarre way I always saw him as a 'BULLSEYE' like protagonist for DD. I like JESTER'S costume, it makes the guy look sinister in the same way certain clowns have an evil look to them. I thought the Jester storyline in issues # 135, 136 and 137 were excellent, and with clever scripting the guy could be brought back as a deadly, and psychotic adversary.
Issues # 124 and 125 of daredevil are amongst the BEST issues ever of Daredevil, so please, PLEASE bring Copperhead back. This character is the perfect adversary in this book. |
Personally I would prefer Jester be different from Bullseye though, DD doesn't really need another "Psycho For Hire" villain. That's why I think its a good idea to revamp his back story, so instead of being a failed actor due to his own foolishness, he is a failed actor due to the actions of another. That makes him a bit tragic, rather then just crazed trouble maker. How often do villains have legitimate reasons for wanting revenge on someone, rather then reasons that either stupid or just extremely petty. I am also not a fan of Jester's costume, Harley Quinn looks like she has a better jester costume then he does, I think it needs a revamp.
Now regarding Copperhead, he is in a bit of more tricky situation. He originally died in first outing, so it seems like he was designed to be a one shot villain. Having him come back as an undead servant of Satan in 2001, means he is pretty far from what he was in his introduction. So instead of fighting the Copperhead originally introduce, he be fighting the undead monster Copperhead has become. The best thing I could suggest is to have someone else take up the Copperhead mantle and copy his original M.O. That seems easier then coming up with a convoluted way to bring back the original. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:49 am Post subject: |
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I thought this was interesting, in this article Waid discusses how some of the Silver age villains have fallen by the wayside after Miller changed things:
http://marvel.com/news/story/19242/daredevil_the_coming_of_coyote
I do think DD's rogues gallery need a major revamp, similar to what Geoff Johns did with Flash's rogues gallery. |
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SK47DD
Flying Blind
Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Has the issue come out where Mark Waid tackle Stilt Man??? |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| SK47DD wrote: | | Has the issue come out where Mark Waid tackle Stilt Man??? |
Yep, issue 17, the last one that came out. However Stilt-Man only appears in a flashback. |
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Solid_Payne
Flying Blind
Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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I think someone needs to bring back Matador as a more serious villain, and maybe bring back Man-Bull for the sole purpose of getting killed by the Matador. No particular reason, but you gotta admit it would look pretty cool.
Reinvent the Matador as a super-criminal and sort-of deranged monster slayer. Someone who takes real pride in the amount and quality of people/creatures he's offed ceremonially, in a Bullfight-like fashion. Kinda like the Bruiser from Waid's run, actually, in terms of motivation.
Leap Frog can only really be used somewhat humorously (and I think he died in Bendis's run anyway).
It would be cool if they brought in the Beyonder for a trippy metaphysical story, but he has to be handled right, since he is essentially one big deus ex machina waiting to happen, having the powers to do...everything. |
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Nightwing2001
Flying Blind
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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If anyone can bring back the pre-Miller silly villians and make them good and interesting it's Mark Waid. I would really like to see him do that.
I would rather see a comic with Stilt Man, Mr. Hyde. Purple Man, or Man Bull any day of the week over one more with friggin ninjas in it!
I also would like to see 2 cool (IMO) dead villians come back, Deathstalker and Copperhead. I think Mark Waid could do justice to them. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Nightwing2001 wrote: | If anyone can bring back the pre-Miller silly villians and make them good and interesting it's Mark Waid. I would really like to see him do that.
I would rather see a comic with Stilt Man, Mr. Hyde. Purple Man, or Man Bull any day of the week over one more with friggin ninjas in it!
I also would like to see 2 cool (IMO) dead villians come back, Deathstalker and Copperhead. I think Mark Waid could do justice to them. |
Well I am of two minds on the subject, on the one hand, I think they should use other members of DD's rogues gallery besides the villains Miller used in his original run, but I also think some villains are easier to write stories for then others. For example Batman fans may get sick of the Joker, but its easier to write stories with say Scarecrow, Mr. Freeze or Killer Croc then Kite Man or Crazy Quilt.
Purple Man hasn't been goofy since 2001, where he was made into a very cruel and sadistic villain in Alias. He is one of the most evil villains in the MU nowadays.
Mr. Hyde is written in a very hit or miss manner, sometimes he is written as a terrifying villain and other times he is written as a joke. In the last couple of years he got some pretty good stories where he is written in a threatening manner, the Lethal Legion mini from 2009 made good use of him and he made a good appearance in a Spider-Man story in 2007.
Stilt-Man is hard to write stories for, because its hard for him to carry a story arc. His gimmick is goofy and he is not a very threatening or compelling villain. He is one of those villains who became a criminal for not very well defined reasons and no one has ever really developed him as a character. You can only really use him as comic relief at this point.
Man-Bull is another not particularly compelling villain, he is kinda of the poor man's Rhino and unlike say the Lizard, Man-Bull was not a sympathetic character before he got transformed. I would almost be tempted to kill off the original Man-Bull and replace him with a more sympathetic character with the same plight. Otherwise he only works as a thug working for more important villains, then someone who can carry a story by himself.
I think its easier to write plots for Purple Man and Mr. Hyde then say Stilt-Man. Some villains are better concepts then others, so I think it would be hard to write plots around some the really goofy DD villains, unless they were given massive revamps. |
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