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Daredevil Message Board
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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Ronald
Flying Blind
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 13
Location: United States
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 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Cracked is a comedy site. They would undermine their case if they got into the DD versus Kingpin stories. Then again, "Daredevil " was a much lighter book before Frank Miller re-defined it into a gritty Film Noir / ninja story.
I don't think that the seriousness of the villains necessarily defines the seriousness of the story. Brubaker did good work with the Gladiator and Mr. Fear, so it's all up to the writer.
Ron |
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abcdavid01
Flying Blind
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:44 am Post subject: |
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No, I agree with cracked. I mentioned this in the other thread about new writers. Bullseye and Typhoid Mary are good. Purple Man could be great with the right story. Mr. Fear as well. Gladiator is good, but I think someone else should use the costume.
If Daredevil is ever going to come out of Spider-Man or Batman's shadows he'll need better villains.
I like that Waid is having DD face Klaw and Mole Man, etc. Also it looks like he's introducing new ones with Coyote and the one behind the latest arc.
I want to see The Hood. That guy should be DD's new arch nemesis. Bendis even wrote in End of Days that Matt loses and eye to him. Also, bring back Nuke.
I'm tempted to write Wacker. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with everything except for the Hood. He sucks. Bendis tried to make him one of his mary sues, but he's always been a boring character, with nothing really interesting about him. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | I agree with everything except for the Hood. He sucks. Bendis tried to make him one of his mary sues, but he's always been a boring character, with nothing really interesting about him. |
Agreed. Bendis really, really wanted The Hood to be something but it just didn't work.
More generally though: Daredevil will never "come out of Spider-man and Batman's shadow". Not because the doesn't have good enough villains but because he simply doesn't have broad appeal like those two do. Daredevil as a character really appeals to me and, I assume, to everyone else on this board. But, he's a blind lawyer who lives in Hells Kitchen and had a nun for a mom and (depending who you ask) a drunk boxer for a dad. He's simply not going to appeal to everyone. It's just that simple.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Ronald wrote: | Yeah, Cracked is a comedy site. They would undermine their case if they got into the DD versus Kingpin stories. Then again, "Daredevil " was a much lighter book before Frank Miller re-defined it into a gritty Film Noir / ninja story.
I don't think that the seriousness of the villains necessarily defines the seriousness of the story. Brubaker did good work with the Gladiator and Mr. Fear, so it's all up to the writer.
Ron |
I would say Mr. Fear and Gladiator work better in serious stories then Leap-Frog or Stilt-Man. Some gimmicks and premises are better then others. Really Bullseye is a colorful super villain and no one has a problem with him in serious stories, ditto with most of Batman's rogues gallery. Really Mr. Fear, Mr. Hyde and Purple Man have better gimmicks then Leap-Frog and Stilt-Man.
But its interesting to ask whether anything could be done with the villains in that list. I think they might be able to do something interesting with a new Masked Marauder and have a mystery about who he really is. There might be something you can do Jester if you revamp his back story a bit and I like the Brubaker version of Matador. Stilt-Man and Leap-Frog are pretty hopeless though.
| james castle wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | | I agree with everything except for the Hood. He sucks. Bendis tried to make him one of his mary sues, but he's always been a boring character, with nothing really interesting about him. |
Agreed. Bendis really, really wanted The Hood to be something but it just didn't work.
More generally though: Daredevil will never "come out of Spider-man and Batman's shadow". Not because the doesn't have good enough villains but because he simply doesn't have broad appeal like those two do. Daredevil as a character really appeals to me and, I assume, to everyone else on this board. But, he's a blind lawyer who lives in Hells Kitchen and had a nun for a mom and (depending who you ask) a drunk boxer for a dad. He's simply not going to appeal to everyone. It's just that simple. |
That's true, but having a strong rogues gallery is always an asset.
There are niche characters who are helped by great villains. For example the Flash's rogues gallery was pretty goofy, before Geoff Johns started revamping it and now its one of the more popular rogues around. I think a writer could give DD a decent rogues gallery if they are willing to take the best villains from the Silver age and Nocenti era and use them in effective ways. |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| That Daredevil has ridiculous villains, many of them barely seen in decades , is repeated so often that it's just accepted without question. Batman, Spider-Man, and Flash are the exceptions, not the rule. Most heroes don't have a lot of great villains, and spend half their issues fighting the same guy. And a lot of the supposed great ones don't bear scrutiny. Captain Cold? Sinestro, a bad Lantern? Luthor, an evil inventor? Mandarin, Fu Manchu with rings and without the sadism? Kingpin, Bullseye, Typhoid, are excellent villains, Purple Man, Gladiator, Mr. Fear ( though i hate the name) are more than respectable. Stiltman was absurdly overused, but I think that before Bendis's artsy Parts of a Hole, DD fought Leap-Frog exactly twice... In 1967. And btw, Colan and Giacoia did a nice job making him look grotesque. I'm all for rotating villains from other heroes, it keeps things fresh, but it's the writer's job to make whoever the villain is be formidable and suspend the reader's disbelief. And stop with the stories where the hero and everyone else keeps calling the villain a buffoon. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| qtmxd wrote: | | I'm all for rotating villains from other heroes, it keeps things fresh, but it's the writer's job to make whoever the villain is be formidable and suspend the reader's disbelief. And stop with the stories where the hero and everyone else keeps calling the villain a buffoon. |
I completely agree with you, qtmxd (even though Bendis' Leap Frog kid story was called Wake Up). It's up to the writer to make a villain compelling. Before Frank Miller, Kingpin and Bullseye weren't what they are now. Paul Jenkin's Daredevil/Spider-Man mini-series is worth a look, partly for the menacing depiction of Stilt-Man. One of the many things I fault Bendis with was the way he would have Daredevil and his allies call the Owl and Bullseye losers. It makes you wonder why Daredevil had a problem with them before, and calls into question his heroism. It's a dumb move. |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, Wake Up, thanks. And I actually wish Mack had tried really painting him in that story. It seems we disagree on Bendis, since I thought his simultaneous runs on DD and Alias were among the high points of comics history, but he was a guilty as any writer of weakening both DD and his villains. (Though his Purple Man was a great psycho). If a villain is really a buffoon, he shouldn't be taking up space. And yes, that weird, insectoid take on Stilt-Man in the first issue of that Jenkins story was really good, though I thought each issue after that deteriorated. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| qtmxd wrote: | | That Daredevil has ridiculous villains, many of them barely seen in decades , is repeated so often that it's just accepted without question. Batman, Spider-Man, and Flash are the exceptions, not the rule. Most heroes don't have a lot of great villains, and spend half their issues fighting the same guy. And a lot of the supposed great ones don't bear scrutiny. Captain Cold? Sinestro, a bad Lantern? Luthor, an evil inventor? Mandarin, Fu Manchu with rings and without the sadism? Kingpin, Bullseye, Typhoid, are excellent villains, Purple Man, Gladiator, Mr. Fear ( though i hate the name) are more than respectable. Stiltman was absurdly overused, but I think that before Bendis's artsy Parts of a Hole, DD fought Leap-Frog exactly twice... In 1967. And btw, Colan and Giacoia did a nice job making him look grotesque. I'm all for rotating villains from other heroes, it keeps things fresh, but it's the writer's job to make whoever the villain is be formidable and suspend the reader's disbelief. And stop with the stories where the hero and everyone else keeps calling the villain a buffoon. |
Now see I disagree with one thing, I like Captain Cold, Sinestro and Lex Luthor and I easily think they stand up to scrutiny. Those guys are better used and better written then most of the non Bullseye, Kingpin and Typhoid Mary villains. Any comic book character can sound lame if you give him a dismissive description and ignore anything that makes him or her interesting.
Plus an Evil Green Lantern sounds like a better concept then a guy with stilts. Captain Cold is consistently used and gets some pretty good stories, that is better then a lot of B-list Marvel villains, who either get rarely used or are put in generic stories where they are interchangeable with other villains. A good rogues gallery is one part good concept and two parts a writer's wiliness to use them in new and interesting ways. There are way too many stories where Mr. Hyde for example, is used as a generic brute, when there are so many more interesting you can do with him, he is both a mad scientist and evil incarnate, a writer can do more interesting things with him then just be DD or Captain America's punching bag. Mr. Hyde has the potential to a great villain, but at this point, he is way below Sinestro and Captain Cold. Really DC has been making better use of their B-list and C-list villains in the last decade. DD hasn't fought Purple Man in 25 years and its being 5 years since DD fought Mr. Fear, leaving their feud unresolved. Some of these guys suffer simply by not being used enough.
I actually do think even some of the lame villains mentioned in the list could be used well. I would agree I think this list is unfair because it picks on DD's Silver Age rogues gallery, which is no longer relevant. However I think you can make a good mystery story out of introducing a new Masked Marauder and maybe you can give Jester a story that seem different from a Joker story. For example, maybe ret con Jester's back story so another actor ruined his career and that actor is now famous. Jester wants to murder this actor in revenge and DD has to protect this rather unsympathetic fellow. If DC can make Catman interesting maybe someone can do something with some of DD's D-list villains.
There is tons of things you can do with some of these characters, if you are willing to take a new radical direction. For example instead of the Wild Boys being just two street punks, why not expand them into a street gang, there is an interesting ongoing story element. |
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Ash-n-Bone
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 223
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Hahaha I have to admit that article made me laugh especially the fact that most of those guys eventually ended up being killed by Punisher.
I do agree with Overlord though, there are some potentially great villains out there just waiting to be used again. Mr Hyde is a perfect example. One of the greatest things about Nocentis run was some of the villains she bought in. I mean seriously, Bushwacker! He's a perfect DD villain. I also like that Waid is trying to add some new guys like Coyote but I would love some writers to dig for some older DD villains who either vanished or left to battle another hero. Bushwacker, Madcap, Tombstone, Hyde, hell bring back Jigsaw, Bendis use of him was great but not enough. |
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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | | I agree with everything except for the Hood. He sucks. Bendis tried to make him one of his mary sues, but he's always been a boring character, with nothing really interesting about him. |
Agreed. Bendis really, really wanted The Hood to be something but it just didn't work.
More generally though: Daredevil will never "come out of Spider-man and Batman's shadow". Not because the doesn't have good enough villains but because he simply doesn't have broad appeal like those two do. Daredevil as a character really appeals to me and, I assume, to everyone else on this board. But, he's a blind lawyer who lives in Hells Kitchen and had a nun for a mom and (depending who you ask) a drunk boxer for a dad. He's simply not going to appeal to everyone. It's just that simple. |
I would agree with that.
Spider-Man has a much wider appeal than DD even though both characters have quite a bit in common.
As for Batman, the perception exists that Bruce can take down anyone regardless of how powerful that villain is. The same cannot be said for Matt.
I'm not sure what could be done to alter the Spider-Man perception but they could work some to alter the Batman perception so that DD could take on some more powerful MU villains and it not be thought of as silly or Matt being overwhelmed.
A hero is only as good as the villain he faces. Those villains need to challenge Matt on both a personal and professional basis. Most of the villains on that list do not, or at least, have seldom been shown to do so. That's why Bullseye and Kingpin remain DD's top foes due to how well Miller faced them off against DD.
(To use the Flash's Rogues as an example, the best thing Johns ever did was to make Zoom's motive that every action and crime he committed was to make Flash a better hero as a result. Brilliant characterization here)
Make it personal, make it dire, and any villain on that list or even a new villain could be an A-lister and help raise DD's perception as a great hero as well. |
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abcdavid01
Flying Blind
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| What about Electro? Fought DD in issue #2. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| abcdavid01 wrote: | | What about Electro? Fought DD in issue #2. |
He is more of a Spidey villain, considering he has fought Spidey far more the he has DD.
| Ash-n-Bone wrote: | Hahaha I have to admit that article made me laugh especially the fact that most of those guys eventually ended up being killed by Punisher.
I do agree with Overlord though, there are some potentially great villains out there just waiting to be used again. Mr Hyde is a perfect example. One of the greatest things about Nocentis run was some of the villains she bought in. I mean seriously, Bushwacker! He's a perfect DD villain. I also like that Waid is trying to add some new guys like Coyote but I would love some writers to dig for some older DD villains who either vanished or left to battle another hero. Bushwacker, Madcap, Tombstone, Hyde, hell bring back Jigsaw, Bendis use of him was great but not enough. |
Its a shame Bushwacker was recently killed off Wolverine. They would have to undo that death to use him again. Jigsaw is a Punisher villain, so I think Frank has dibs on him.
| Darkdevil wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | | I agree with everything except for the Hood. He sucks. Bendis tried to make him one of his mary sues, but he's always been a boring character, with nothing really interesting about him. |
Agreed. Bendis really, really wanted The Hood to be something but it just didn't work.
More generally though: Daredevil will never "come out of Spider-man and Batman's shadow". Not because the doesn't have good enough villains but because he simply doesn't have broad appeal like those two do. Daredevil as a character really appeals to me and, I assume, to everyone else on this board. But, he's a blind lawyer who lives in Hells Kitchen and had a nun for a mom and (depending who you ask) a drunk boxer for a dad. He's simply not going to appeal to everyone. It's just that simple. |
I would agree with that.
Spider-Man has a much wider appeal than DD even though both characters have quite a bit in common.
As for Batman, the perception exists that Bruce can take down anyone regardless of how powerful that villain is. The same cannot be said for Matt.
I'm not sure what could be done to alter the Spider-Man perception but they could work some to alter the Batman perception so that DD could take on some more powerful MU villains and it not be thought of as silly or Matt being overwhelmed.
A hero is only as good as the villain he faces. Those villains need to challenge Matt on both a personal and professional basis. Most of the villains on that list do not, or at least, have seldom been shown to do so. That's why Bullseye and Kingpin remain DD's top foes due to how well Miller faced them off against DD.
(To use the Flash's Rogues as an example, the best thing Johns ever did was to make Zoom's motive that every action and crime he committed was to make Flash a better hero as a result. Brilliant characterization here)
Make it personal, make it dire, and any villain on that list or even a new villain could be an A-lister and help raise DD's perception as a great hero as well. |
Well I do think making ever villain personal for DD would get tiresome after a while, you can have a good story where DD foil a villain who is committing crimes against others, rather doing something for personal reasons.
If Mr. Hyde commits a gruesome crime against total strangers, it may not be as personal as Mr. Hyde killing his loved ones, but it still offend Matt on principal. Heck Purple Man has been killing and raping people in the past and DD hasn't fought him in 25 years, DD should find Purple Man loathsome, even if Purple Man never committed a crime against DD personally. |
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abcdavid01
Flying Blind
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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I know Electro is a Spider-man villain, but he was Daredevil's first enemy besides Mr. Slade. The first super villain. There's some history I'd like to see touched upon. After all, Mysterio's been given a real place in DD's history too.
Of course, I'm not saying DD should only fight Spider-man villains. It's just that it's already there for someone to pick up.
Bushwacker's a cyborg, right? Easy to bring him back. Echo's death is worse I think, but then no one was gonna use her. I'm hoping some future DD writer has The Hand resurrect her. |
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