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| Would you like to see Miss O'Breen back? |
| O, yes, I want to see that plucky redhead again |
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45% |
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| No, I'm not particularly interested |
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45% |
[ 5 ] |
| Glorianna... who? |
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9% |
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| Total Votes : 11 |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Blind Alley wrote: | We can count the female characters that were used in the Bendis run :
- Vanessa Fisk
- Black Widow
- Elektra
- Milla
- Jessica Jones
- the Night Nurse
- Typhoid Mary
- Agent Del Toro
Definitely a kind of shortage of female characters until Brubaker... |
I don't know if eight constitutes a "shortage". That's a subjective opinion. My issue isn't about the number of women, but the role they played and how they were portrayed. Despite previous comments to the contrary, I think the appearance of most of these characters during the Bendis run were vitally strategic, if not damned interesting, elements in the stories they appeared. Here are four random samplings of what I mean:
Vanessa Fisk had to make the decision to kill her son in order to save her husband. Daredevil makes a pact with her in order to save himself. There's nothing trivial about her role in this reboot or about how she perceives herself as both a mother and a wife.
My favourite story arc of the entire Daredevil reboot to date is without doubt "Widow". Through Natasha, Bendis incorporated a great espionage element into DD's outed storyline. We saw Natasha as we seldom do: working undercover, brilliantly tracking her "mark". We got to learn a little more about Natasha's when her ex-husband, the former Red Guardian, was revealed to the mastermind of her troubles. For reasons left to our collective imaginations, we learn that when it comes to his former wife, he's a spiteful, good-for-nothing pr!<k, who masterminded the entire affiair because of some serious hate-on he's got going for her. Plus, check out how old he looks. He looks like he's in his 60s, yet history has shown they were relatively the same age when they married. This gives further evidence that Natasha is Marvel's very well preserved "cougar". (Who knows...maybe during WWII, the Soviets gave her a serum similar to what Steve Rogers received.) As well, in this arc, Bendis wrote some truly dynamite, killer lines. For instance, when Matt comes across a partially nude Natasha in his bed he says: "It's the Black Widow. When I was fifteen, I used to dream of things like this happening to me." And of course this story arc is over and above her other intermittent appearances, which makes her an important recurring character in the reboot.
Jessica Jones as Matt's body guard was an interesting sub-text to the story. Okay, she wasn't a major player, but she was played well. You got some keen insights into her personal feelings of Matt Murdock. And I liked the way her Alias book overlapped with her role as Matt's bodyguard. It was very simply a nice touch.
With Agent Del Toro, you get a woman standing up for the honour of her family and, especially of her late brother. You saw her strengths and vulnerabilities as a government agent and as Daredevil's student. She was a very textured and well developed character. By making her the White Tiger, Bendis injected some new interest into a formerly third class comic character. Not insignificantly, if I recall correctly, she was also a woman of colour. Heck, what more do you want?
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This gives further evidence that Natasha is Marvel's very well preserved "cougar". (Who knows...maybe during WWII, the Soviets gave her a serum similar to what Steve Rogers received.) |
In fact that's exactly what happened. Natasha has been injected with a variant of the super soldier serum, enhancing her abilities to peak human and slowing her ageing process.
Also, the White Tiger is of Puertorican origin. |
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Blind Alley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 292
Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: |
I don't know if eight constitutes a "shortage". _________________
blacktyphoid |
It was ironical.
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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...And you've forgotten to focus on the word "strong."
The whole point of the conversation was the shortage of strong female characters.
Del Toro's waffling, trying to find herself. Lame. 'Honoring her family'? Sure. More like BMB honoring a tired cliche. DD teaching her? He doesn't have time for that.
The Night Nurse--yes, very rich character development indeed. (Now THAT's 'ironical'.) Now, I'm not ripping into BMB for this one, it makes sense to use her and it's a nice touch, but hardly a strong female character.
Typhoid Mary. One and done. Brief rise, quick fall, nothing interesting here.
Jessica Jones. Pet creation of BMB, apparently her addition to my consciousness is solely for dialogue. I remain unimpressed.
Milla. I think we know where I stand on that.
Vanessa Fisk. Great scene with her and Matt dining together. I've no problem with this one.
Elektra. It seems like she's only used whenever a writer wants to introduce a perspective of 'oh, he's not alone, somebody does worry about him. But if they ever actually got together again, we'd totally whack her.'
Black Widow. See Elektra. And, because she's been used as a sex tool before, let's just do it again.
"I don't know if eight constitutes a "shortage". That's a subjective opinion."
1) All opinions are subjective. Even our perceptions of objective truths are subjective.
2) I agree with you, the issue is the role they played, more than the number.
3) Vanessa's pact didn't happen until Brubaker. Just saying. Restating my claim, prior to Brubaker, there is a shortage of strong female characters.
I prefer them to be recurring as well. In like the new Becky Blake way (every issue), not the old Becky Blake way (is she dead? WTF?). |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | DD teaching her? He doesn't have time for that. |
DD barely spent one hour "teaching" her. |
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Is this you trying painfully to be funny or trying painfully to sound smarter?
I can assure you you're accomplishing neither. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Huh?
I really don't know, sorry. |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Quote: | | This gives further evidence that Natasha is Marvel's very well preserved "cougar". (Who knows...maybe during WWII, the Soviets gave her a serum similar to what Steve Rogers received.) |
In fact that's exactly what happened. Natasha has been injected with a variant of the super soldier serum, enhancing her abilities to peak human and slowing her ageing process.
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Francesco, do you recall the Black Widow comic book that mentions something about the injection? I'm not disputing what your saying; on the contrary, I'd love to read about it!
A growing number and variety of comics produced over several years seem to verify the notion that Natasha is probably in her 60s. Her various mini-series revealed medical related issues and Soviet experimentation; a Claremont written X-Men story from the mid-'80s (and smartly integrated into the current Wolverine Origins series) connected Natasha to the Hand, Wolverine and Captain America during WWII; a Ben Grimm/Logan early Cold War period mini-series produced in the late '90s pitted them against a grown-up Natasha. But - and this is just me - I don't recall any of them confirming Natasha taking any super soldier serum.
Thanks.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Black Widow #4: "No Place Like Home" February 2005. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Solid Snake PAC wrote: | | as possibly stated before, there's a level of disbelief that can attributed to such things. Human *non-super/magic/etc.* characters, like say ppl like Karen or Uncle Ben, should never be brought back because of the involvement of their deaths. Jean Grey was an X-Man, the X-Men go thru the whole Earth super community and others as well. Her coming back, you could believe a lot easier than say...Karen being back. Bucky as the Winter Solider was brought back in a form of belief, yeah you could believe all the stuff that happened. Van Helsing could be brought back, mind you, but I'm not sure what kind of death she was given or who she was...and the circles she could be involved in. |
You bring a good point here... Still, of the examples you've given, I'm only satisfied with the Winter Soldier's return. Let me ellaborate.
It is true that a character endowed with some extraordinary power might overcome death more easily than ordinary folk like uncle Ben and Glorianna...
...Still, the quid of the question would be a good rationale behind a comeback, powers or not: I mean, what made possible the return of Bucky is that Brubaker got through the loopholes of previous continuity, and wrote one heck of a story. In the case of Jean Grey or Piotr Rasputin I wasn't as satisfied with their comebacks. In Jean's case, her death was such an epic story that her "I actually I was within a cocoon all the time" story fell flat for me. As for Colossus, I admit that I actually didn't find the story of his death to be a good one, and I sort of like his being back and with Kitty... Still, the story, the reasoning behind his return from death doesn't work for me as Bucky's did.
The basic idea is that characters shouldn't be killed gratuitously in the first place, and if they are brought from death, that should be done properly (good story, well worked-out explanation), I mean... not the "it's magic" or "Superboy just punched a wall" thingie.
Incidentally, I've come across two items in the last days which gave me some food for thought re Glorianna's death and possible comeback:
Item 1:
Well; i though they'd been in some paper recicling dump for ages, but I actually found some issues of the Kruel saga while putting some order at home.
Oh. My. GODS.
The continuity goofs are BIGGER than I remembered.
OK, before I start, I must say that I can forgive the Kruel saga for not remembering that Matt was once in a space-rocket, but let's mention just a few BASIC items of DD's continuity:
1- Matt and Foggy go to College. After graduating, they start a firm together (either just after college, or not too long after that, depending on whether you refer the classic origins or the MWF ones)
2- Nelson and Murdock enlist Karen Page's services as a secretary.
3- After some time working as N&M secretary, Karen decides to try an acting career. We see her doing some suspense films and TV. We last see her when Matt is already dating Heather Glenn, and Karen seems to have a thing for the Ghost Rider (OK, maybe she just took a ride in his bike)
3- Some years pass (more or less depending on one's perception of the sliding timeline thingie). Foggie's been married to Debbie Harris for some time. Glorianna O'Breen, Debbie's niece, comes to America for the first time. While the age-gap between Debbie and Glori is not a mother-daughter one, it is clear that Glori is younger than Debbie, and very much the wide-eyed colleen discovering the Big Apple.
4- Not long after this, during the Born Again saga, Karen Page returns. Frank Miller reveals that she's made quite a career doing "educational" films, and is already a has-been at that (which suggests that, yes time has passed since we last saw her with Johny Blaze). During same saga, Ben Urich sees some good pictures by Glori in Foggy's portfolio, and, as a result of that, Glori's offered a job as photographer in the Bugle.
OK, now let's see what we have in DD #340: Among an assorted group of people in a bar witnessing a fight between mobsters, we have Nelson, a Law student, Page, an aspiring actress, and Glorianna, a photographer already working in her first big assignment for the press.
Now, pinch me if the whole thing is not a bit too scrambled, I mean, unless they were all meeting in the tavern at the edge of worlds (and continuity) or a similar eating place in the Twilight Zone... Even if we accept the poetic license of Karen contemplating an acting career before eventually becoming a secretary (though I wasn't aware that they taught stenography at the Actor's Studio), the statement that Glori was already working in NYC as a press photographer as Foggy wasn't still a lawyer is... well, jarring on all accounts.
This is not like forgetting that Matt once was in a space-rocket, this is like having sister Maggie telling Matt: "Matt, I am your daughter!".
Item 2:
I am catching up with old issues of Brubaker's Catwoman. There's a two-page fourth-wall-breaking funny story by Brubaker and Eric Shanover, where Holly Robinson asks to Selina why she isn't dead  . It's a lot of fun to see Holly ranting about authors screwing with continuity (yes, she's a geek like me!), and Selina de-dramatizing the whole question, under the "it's only comics" POV (putting Archie of Riverdale and his perennial youth as an example, LOL)
OK, DC's continuity has got a lot of "Crisis" and reboots and treeboots, so it is easier for writers to bring back a character than in Marvel (until your EIC has other ideas)... But I like Selina's statement that "maybe the writers just liked the character and wanted to bring her back"
Hum, I'd just love that Brubaker liked Glorianna  , I mean, if the man brings Bucky back in such a grand way that no-one can possibly complain, he looks capable of performing yet another feat.
Mmmh! the Overlord suggested a good idea: such as O'Breen faking her death due to her IRA connections, with the M16 involved... we could have SHIELD and Natasha involved too! 
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"
Last edited by Gloria on Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, I'm going to have to go back and re-read #340. You may be on to something here Gloria!
As for the Matt being in a space ship thing... Yeah, I think we should all just pretend that didn't happen. That made no sense at all. That whole issue was just really strange and goofy (thinking of Vol1 #2 here...). Case in point: "I can hear the levers move..."
Question 1: How do you know which is which?
Question 2: Did they teach you that in law school?
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | Question 2: Did they teach you that in law school? |
Well, you know that I'm not fond of Kevin Smith's run, but there was a sentence there which just seems adequate now: "in law school they prepare you for a lot of things"
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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the gael
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: |
As James Castle has pointed, it was such a sucky story, not particularly remembered and with no author having the guts to claim its fatherhood/motherhood... Hey! even with OMD there are two "parents" discussing the ADN of the creature. Whoever wrote the story wasn't particularly proud of it, otherwise wouldn't have signed like "Allan Smithee".
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I really want to know why D.G. chichester has written this piece of crap ( sorry but it's true ), using the pseudonym alan smythee.
the kruel story is absolutely atrocious ( it's probably the worst DD story, far worst than " guardian devil " and it's not a good thing ) and mixed the two things that make me dislike the chichester work : the jack battling era, a meaningless dead end, and the glorianna murder which was totally pointless.
She could have been an interesting point in the relationship between the two friends / lawyers.
She was the first female character who choose foggy above Matt ( the exact opposite of karen page ), and she worked way better with Mr Nelson.
that's why killing her to make Matt's life miserable was so stupid.
and more, she wasn't only a love interest, but also a strong female character.
if there is a way to undo the bad kruel story, I vote to bring her back. ( it's hard but I think that Ed brubaker has enough talent to make it ) |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| the gael wrote: | | that's why killing her to make Matt's life miserable was so stupid. |
Yes, I think that Glorianna and Karen's death are examples of how to over-angst a character. Both Elektra and Heather's death were sad but damn good stories. In retrospect, I almost wish heather had never died, but how could Denny O'Neil ever suspect he was starting a bodycount when he wrote Miss Glenn's death? And Miller at least killed the character he had created, the Sand-Saref-esque and tragic Elektra... Did he kill her to make te point that those who kill by the sword die by the sword (or sai)?
These deaths had some build-up behind, and were at their time something new in the series. Karen's death was a copycat death: one could say the story was written by the Mysterio of the Guardian Devil saga (who couldn't be original even to kill himself).
Matt was screwed enough by the death of his father and then Elektra, and then Heather, all the subsequent deaths seem so shallow to me, and Glorianna's death is such a bad story it hurts.
Matt's life was miserable enough. Karen and Glori's death were overkills.
| the gael wrote: | She could have been an interesting point in the relationship between the two friends / lawyers.
She was the first female character who choose foggy above Matt ( the exact opposite of karen page ), and she worked way better with Mr Nelson. |
Heh, heh... obviously that's a point of interest for me. Smith tried to trivialize it by a very degrading comment in his Dd run, but the truth is that Glorianna choose Foggy very consciously, not just drop Matt for comfort" as Smith suggests through Natasha's mouth. It may well be that she found a quality in Foggy that she didn't find in Matt (i.e. trust, reliability, faithfulness... Yes some girls like this kind of thing: the nice, big-hearted guy).
Also, I liked the Glori-Foggy relationship because it was a bit of humble pie for Matt (chick-wise).
| the gael wrote: |
and more, she wasn't only a love interest, but also a strong female character. |
Yes, I liked that bit by Nocenti where she snaps back at Matt when she feels she's too self-righteous. This is the kind of thing that you could expect from her: an independent mind.
James Buchanan Barnes... simply WOW.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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the gael
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | the gael wrote: | | that's why killing her to make Matt's life miserable was so stupid. |
Yes, I think that Glorianna and Karen's death are examples of how to over-angst a character. Both Elektra and Heather's death were sad but damn good stories. In retrospect, I almost wish heather had never died, but how could Denny O'Neil ever suspect he was starting a bodycount when he wrote Miss Glenn's death? And Miller at least killed the character he had created, the Sand-Saref-esque and tragic Elektra... Did he kill her to make te point that those who kill by the sword die by the sword (or sai)?
These deaths had some build-up behind, and were at their time something new in the series. Karen's death was a copycat death: one could say the story was written by the Mysterio of the Guardian Devil saga (who couldn't be original even to kill himself).
Matt was screwed enough by the death of his father and then Elektra, and then Heather, all the subsequent deaths seem so shallow to me, and Glorianna's death is such a bad story it hurts.
Matt's life was miserable enough. Karen and Glori's death were overkills.
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Elektra's death was great because at the time the love interest wasn't supposed to die and miller planified it when he created the character. He wanted to create something like a greek tragedy and wrote the book with the idea in mind. That was why it was so great.
As for heather, she was a character that really didn't found her place in the book after the elektra introduction. Excepet the fact that she was a rich girl, she hadn't anything original in her, and after the purple man storyline, it was clear that writers didn't know what to do with her. It was sad to kill her but dennis o'neil wanted her to have a strong impact in Matt's life by making her commit suicide. It was sad that she was forgotten because Miller took the book in another direction with born again.
Then comes the two other death. Glory's death was ridiculous, without any impact. It was so clear that this was made just for the hype. Except maybe when Matt hear her death there wasn't any good scene in the dreadfull and stupid story. Chichester should have been very shamefull to write the story under the allan smythee alias.
Maybe wasn't he the only responsible for the atrocity and maybe was there some stupid editorial decision. I don't know.
And then come Kevin Smith, and I won't be very clever with my judgement of his " guardian devil ".
Not that it was as bas as the kruel storyline ( seriously, you can't have a story as bad as it ), but it just didn't make any sense at all.
For smith, the death of the girlfriend by bullseye seems to be " classic ". I have to say that what he meens by " classic " is " boring rehash " for me.
I have to admit that I am not a great fan of Milla ( I really prefer someone like kate vynokur for exemple ), but I really hope that she won't die in " without fear " because I'm really really tired of what smith called " a classic scene ". I want something new.
then he said that karen cleared herself for what she did in born again by her sacrifice. Well, did he read the book ? remember one of the last kesel issue when she's tied up and tortured by insomnia who wants to know who daredevil is ? And karen answered something like " he's he's... someone about to kick your ass ! "
Smith statement is stupid, she allready paid her debt with this scene.
I should add that the random appearance of mysterio as a villian was really out of place ( why using mysterio whereas Mr Fear / Cranston was more indicate ? ), and you can understand that I didn't think that the whole " guardian devil " makes any sense at all. |
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