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| Would you like to see Miss O'Breen back? |
| O, yes, I want to see that plucky redhead again |
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45% |
[ 5 ] |
| No, I'm not particularly interested |
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45% |
[ 5 ] |
| Glorianna... who? |
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9% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 11 |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| the gael wrote: | | I have to admit that I am not a great fan of Milla ( I really prefer someone like kate vynokur for exemple ), but I really hope that she won't die in " without fear " because I'm really really tired of what smith called " a classic scene ". I want something new. |
I think it would be cool if Milla realized that this isn't working for her, and she left Matt and moved on with her life. An ex-wife might add an interesting dimension. |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | ...The basic idea is that characters shouldn't be killed gratuitously in the first place, and if they are brought from death, that should be done properly (good story, well worked-out explanation), I mean... not the "it's magic" or "Superboy just punched a wall" thingie.
Incidentally, I've come across two items in the last days which gave me some food for thought re Glorianna's death and possible comeback:
Item 1:
Well; i though they'd been in some paper recicling dump for ages, but I actually found some issues of the Kruel saga while putting some order at home.
Oh. My. GODS.
The continuity goofs are BIGGER than I remembered.
OK, before I start, I must say that I can forgive the Kruel saga for not remembering that Matt was once in a space-rocket, but let's mention just a few BASIC items of DD's continuity:
1- Matt and Foggy go to College. After graduating, they start a firm together (either just after college, or not too long after that, depending on whether you refer the classic origins or the MWF ones)
2- Nelson and Murdock enlist Karen Page's services as a secretary.
3- After some time working as N&M secretary, Karen decides to try an acting career. We see her doing some suspense films and TV. We last see her when Matt is already dating Heather Glenn, and Karen seems to have a thing for the Ghost Rider (OK, maybe she just took a ride in his bike)
3- Some years pass (more or less depending on one's perception of the sliding timeline thingie). Foggie's been married to Debbie Harris for some time. Glorianna O'Breen, Debbie's niece, comes to America for the first time. While the age-gap between Debbie and Glori is not a mother-daughter one, it is clear that Glori is younger than Debbie, and very much the wide-eyed colleen discovering the Big Apple.
4- Not long after this, during the Born Again saga, Karen Page returns. Frank Miller reveals that she's made quite a career doing "educational" films, and is already a has-been at that (which suggests that, yes time has passed since we last saw her with Johny Blaze). During same saga, Ben Urich sees some good pictures by Glori in Foggy's portfolio, and, as a result of that, Glori's offered a job as photographer in the Bugle.
OK, now let's see what we have in DD #340: Among an assorted group of people in a bar witnessing a fight between mobsters, we have Nelson, a Law student, Page, an aspiring actress, and Glorianna, a photographer already working in her first big assignment for the press.
Now, pinch me if the whole thing is not a bit too scrambled, I mean, unless they were all meeting in the tavern at the edge of worlds (and continuity) or a similar eating place in the Twilight Zone... Even if we accept the poetic license of Karen contemplating an acting career before eventually becoming a secretary (though I wasn't aware that they taught stenography at the Actor's Studio), the statement that Glori was already working in NYC as a press photographer as Foggy wasn't still a lawyer is... well, jarring on all accounts.
This is not like forgetting that Matt once was in a space-rocket, this is like having sister Maggie telling Matt: "Matt, I am your daughter!".
Item 2:
I am catching up with old issues of Brubaker's Catwoman. There's a two-page fourth-wall-breaking funny story by Brubaker and Eric Shanover, where Holly Robinson asks to Selina why she isn't dead  . It's a lot of fun to see Holly ranting about authors screwing with continuity (yes, she's a geek like me!), and Selina de-dramatizing the whole question, under the "it's only comics" POV (putting Archie of Riverdale and his perennial youth as an example, LOL)
OK, DC's continuity has got a lot of "Crisis" and reboots and treeboots, so it is easier for writers to bring back a character than in Marvel (until your EIC has other ideas)... But I like Selina's statement that "maybe the writers just liked the character and wanted to bring her back"
Hum, I'd just love that Brubaker liked Glorianna  , I mean, if the man brings Bucky back in such a grand way that no-one can possibly complain, he looks capable of performing yet another feat.
Mmmh! the Overlord suggested a good idea: such as O'Breen faking her death due to her IRA connections, with the M16 involved... we could have SHIELD and Natasha involved too!  |
Gloria - I didn't want too much time to pass before recognizing the great job you did putting the Glorianna O'Breen storyline in continuity. This is an absolutely brilliant piece of research and analysis. Thank you!
One other rather significant continuity goof (which I've previously noted): The murdered Glorianna didn't have the sweet Irish brogue that helped to characterize her in Denny O'Neil's wonderful original scripts. Maybe you're right: the Smithee/Kruel episode was so horrible that it should be considered nothing more than a nightmare of a story - both figuritively and literally. As others have noted, it was so bad in fact that the writer refused to put his real name to it. As a result, it should be considered a kind of "What If"-non-continuity story. If so, then Glorianna O'Breen is actually alive and well - Irish brogue and all!
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: | | Gloria - I didn't want too much time to pass before recognizing the great job you did putting the Glorianna O'Breen storyline in continuity. This is an absolutely brilliant piece of research and analysis. Thank you! |
Thanks for the kudos, though I am afraid that most anyone else is thinking that I have indulged in an exercise of hopeless geekiness, LOL
| blacktyphoid wrote: |
One other rather significant continuity goof (which I've previously noted): The murdered Glorianna didn't have the sweet Irish brogue that helped to characterize her in Denny O'Neil's wonderful original scripts. Maybe you're right: the Smithee/Kruel episode was so horrible that it should be considered nothing more than a nightmare of a story - both figuritively and literally. As others have noted, it was so bad in fact that the writer refused to put his real name to it. As a result, it should be considered a kind of "What If"-non-continuity story. If so, then Glorianna O'Breen is actually alive and well - Irish brogue and all! |
Yes, I think 'twas her Emerald isle accent and plucky attitude which charmed the pants off of both Matt and Foggy.
In my imagination, she's just spending some time with relatives in her native island, taking pictures of Innisfree and other beautiful spots of the fictional Eire... And considering a visit to the Big Apple to make up with an old boyfriend (which of them? Aaah, surprise!)
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | blacktyphoid wrote: | | Gloria - I didn't want too much time to pass before recognizing the great job you did putting the Glorianna O'Breen storyline in continuity. This is an absolutely brilliant piece of research and analysis. Thank you! |
Thanks for the kudos, though I am afraid that most anyone else is thinking that I have indulged in an exercise of hopeless geekiness, LOL) |
Here's another exercise in hopeless geekiness. Deborah Harris, Glorianna's aunt and Foggy's ex-wife, was the creation of Wally Wood. In his short but popular run as DD's resident artist, at a time when Stan Lee was the exclusively credited writer of all things Marvel, Wally was credited for writing one DD issue (Vol 1, #10), which happened to be Deborah Harris' first appearance. For some inexplicable reason, I find that to be an interesting bit of DD trivia.
Based on her history with the book, Deborah Harris - and by extension Glorianna O'Breen - end up becoming Wally Wood's endearing, and perhaps somewhat accidental, legacy on Daredevil.
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: | | Based on her history with the book, Deborah Harris - and by extension Glorianna O'Breen - end up becoming Wally Wood's endearing, and perhaps somewhat accidental, legacy on Daredevil. |
I love the Glorianna-Wood connection you just made!
Without denying credit to Glory's papas -Denny O'Neil and William Johnson, Plus David Mazzuchelli, who was the one who defined her further, graphically- I like her to be linked, indirectly, to one of the greatest artists, not only in Dd, but in the story of comics.
Thinking of Debbie, I doubt we'll see her back in te series, due to O'Neil turning her into a witch, but I think that she used to be a nice girl (until the O'Neil run):after all, she redeemed herself from her complicity with Abner Jonas.
In fact, when Lily showd up in NYC, I felt she was a bit reminiscing of the early Debbie, as... (skip the next paragraph, if you ain't read the last few issues! ONE SPOILER AHEAD)
Debbie was a girl who charmed the good guys, but was part of some evil plot, as Lily was during Matt's European tour and right now. We'll see what plans does Brubaker have for her. Still, her being a magnet for trouble, I don't warm to the idea of her becoming a new love interest for any of the partners... They have suffered a lot, and she doesn't seem like the kind of person that would help things to improve (so far). Still, I'd like Lily to redeem herself.
Now that I think about it, I'd like Debbie to redeem herself, too
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: | Here's another exercise in hopeless geekiness. Deborah Harris, Glorianna's aunt and Foggy's ex-wife, was the creation of Wally Wood. In his short but popular run as DD's resident artist, at a time when Stan Lee was the exclusively credited writer of all things Marvel, Wally was credited for writing one DD issue (Vol 1, #10), which happened to be Deborah Harris' first appearance. For some inexplicable reason, I find that to be an interesting bit of DD trivia.
Based on her history with the book, Deborah Harris - and by extension Glorianna O'Breen - end up becoming Wally Wood's endearing, and perhaps somewhat accidental, legacy on Daredevil. |
On further review of my own comment, the red costume would obviously have to be considered Wood's "endearing" and most significant legacy on DD; Deborah Harris is more like Wood's "enduring" legacy on DD.
| Gloria wrote: |
I love the Glorianna-Wood connection you just made!
Without denying credit to Glory's papas -Denny O'Neil and William Johnson, Plus David Mazzuchelli, who was the one who defined her further, graphically- I like her to be linked, indirectly, to one of the greatest artists, not only in Dd, but in the story of comics. |
It's almost a fluke, really...bucking the convention of the times, somehow Wood, the resident artist, was given the green light to plot and script one DD comic in which he, by chance, creates a supporting character that other writers decades later have been able to build-upon. That said, though, I agree with you - it is nice and unique that the Glorianna O'Breen connection stretches back in the series almost forty years to one of the all-time greats.
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: |
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OK, here's a new bit that might make the return of Miss O'Breen more possible.
Check this post by typolad.
And now comes my question.... Has been the late Vol. 1 "Grey armoured suit" period ever been referenced in Vol. 2? I'd say that, with the exception of one of its consequences (Elektra being back in the world), the Jack Battlin' period is fairly obliterated.
Think of it, every then and now, we get nods to old Vol. 1 stories, even Brubaker recently recovered Becky Blake, and, briefly, Mike Murdock and Rosalynd Sharpe... many villains and friends from Vol. 1 are still there, but, I have a impression that ther might be a non-written, non-spoken "forget about the grey-armoured suit times" policy at Marvel?
I'd like to think so. I'd like the absolutely pointless death of Glorianna to be a "let's pretend it never happened" item
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: |
And now comes my question.... Has been the late Vol. 1 "Grey armoured suit" period ever been referenced in Vol. 2? I'd say that, with the exception of one of its consequences (Elektra being back in the world), the Jack Battlin' period is fairly obliterated. |
Yes, I think that's become one of those things that never gets spoken of for a reason. Otherwise his earlier outing would have been mentioned in some way during Bendis's later Murdock outing. Instead it's treated as if it's happening for the first time (rather than the fourth time, depending on how you look at it). Late Chichester was just crazy. Why would Daredevil pretend to be a new Daredevil if the whole point of faking his own death as Matt Murdock was to disassociate himself from Daredevil. And why have Jack Batlin be a con-man? That right there might be one of the strangest choices ever in terms of character development.
Maybe, just maybe, it was all a bad dream... One can always hope.
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | (rather than the fourth time, depending on how you look at it) |
Yes, DD being outed is not a new development at all: remember that Urich did it, but didn't publish the story (don't you love Ben for that? )
The very first time DD gou outed by the press was shortly after his first confrontation with the Gladiator. The newspapers made big headlines: "prominent NYC Lawyer said to be Daredevil. Franklin Nelson, unmasked by the Gladiator" LOL
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | OK, here's a new bit that might make the return of Miss O'Breen more possible.
Check this post by typolad.
And now comes my question.... Has been the late Vol. 1 "Grey armoured suit" period ever been referenced in Vol. 2? I'd say that, with the exception of one of its consequences (Elektra being back in the world), the Jack Battlin' period is fairly obliterated.
Think of it, every then and now, we get nods to old Vol. 1 stories, even Brubaker recently recovered Becky Blake, and, briefly, Mike Murdock and Rosalynd Sharpe... many villains and friends from Vol. 1 are still there, but, I have a impression that ther might be a non-written, non-spoken "forget about the grey-armoured suit times" policy at Marvel?
I'd like to think so. I'd like the absolutely pointless death of Glorianna to be a "let's pretend it never happened" item |
Still I really hate Dallas style resolutions, if you are going bring her back, why not mkae a story out of it? It would give her important role in the title. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: |
Still I really hate Dallas style resolutions, if you are going bring her back, why not mkae a story out of it? It would give her important role in the title. |
Oh, I'd like to have Glori back with a freakin' good return story, too. By Brubaker, if possible.
Still, my point is that there would be no Dallas syndrome as... Well, the story of her death was so full of goofs, I mean, Glori being already in the USA AND working for the Bugle while Foggy was still studying law: it just doesn't fit... doesn't fit at all, even if one is not a continuity-porn freak.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: |
Still I really hate Dallas style resolutions, if you are going bring her back, why not mkae a story out of it? It would give her important role in the title. |
Oh, I'd like to have Glori back with a freakin' good return story, too. By Brubaker, if possible.
Still, my point is that there would be no Dallas syndrome as... Well, the story of her death was so full of goofs, I mean, Glori being already in the USA AND working for the Bugle while Foggy was still studying law: it just doesn't fit... doesn't fit at all, even if one is not a continuity-porn freak. |
Still the whole "she never died, the whole thing is dream" is kinda lame, IMO. Why not just resolve all these contradictions in a story involving her return. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: |
Still the whole "she never died, the whole thing is dream" is kinda lame, IMO. Why not just resolve all these contradictions in a story involving her return. |
Yes, that would be grand: a story explaining how and why she never actually died. I dig your M16 involvement proposal, as Glorianna had links with the IRA, so it could make a good story.
The idea was not exactly "the whole thing was a dream"... more like a "bad dream", lol. Still, my point is that the story of Glorianna's death has so many weak points, that, in hands of a competent writer, it wouldn't be difficult to pull a return story... I mean, Bucky was "dead and buried", but Brubaker was able to bring him back manouevring skillfully through the holes in the story (i.e. No Bucky Corpse after the explosion?. I'd like to have Glori back in similar circumstances (though not with a bio-mechanical arm, lol)
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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OK, I finally got to re-read the rest of issues of the Kruel story. Certainly this doesn't redeem the impression I got on finding a couple of them.
The plot I still don't like... too far-fetched, and if you're going to write a far-fetched story, make at least well built: this is not the case in the Kruel story.
Not even the art redeems a bad script... Not that the artists are bad (Kedith Pollard is a competent veteran), but there are too many splash pages and Kruel's a ppearance changes from guy with a scarred face to guy with a burnt skull face without much explanation, and we never really get the reason for everithing well explained... the whole thing is strecthes for effect.
But maybe the funniest thing of it all is a sub-plot where Karen Page is looking for an investigator to help her in her anti-porn crusade. The guy answering to the ad is none other than Garrett (of Elektra Assasin fame). This bizarre sub-plot is entirely forgotten in subsequent issues, but one bets Bullseye would have never to pun a finger over Karen had Garrett been around
Maybe we could take the Garrett sub-plot is an indicative that the whole story's been a bad dream
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: |
And now comes my question.... Has been the late Vol. 1 "Grey armoured suit" period ever been referenced in Vol. 2? I'd say that, with the exception of one of its consequences (Elektra being back in the world), the Jack Battlin' period is fairly obliterated.
Think of it, every then and now, we get nods to old Vol. 1 stories, even Brubaker recently recovered Becky Blake, and, briefly, Mike Murdock and Rosalynd Sharpe... many villains and friends from Vol. 1 are still there, but, I have a impression that ther might be a non-written, non-spoken "forget about the grey-armoured suit times" policy at Marvel?
I'd like to think so. I'd like the absolutely pointless death of Glorianna to be a "let's pretend it never happened" item |
That creative team (Chichester and McDaniel) deserves more credit than they get. In the face of the profound indifference the suits at Marvel showed to characters that weren't mutants or spiders during the 1990s, when it came to commemorating DD's 30th Anniversary, D J Chichester tried to do some interesting things to generate a buzz. Along with artist Scott McDaniel, he created a new outfit, brought back Elektra and staged an entirely new "look" and direction for the book. I remember enjoying their "Fall From Grace" story arc. For a short while, they succeeded. I believe sales had dramatically increased.
You know what? I liked the grey armoured suit - when it was drawn by Scott McDaniel, its creator. Trouble was that every artist who followed McDaniel did an awful job with it. I guess the sheer and brilliant simplicity of the red outfit makes it near-perfect and perhaps, in hindsight, silly to try to change it.
So despite the shellacking that D J Chichester occasionally receives from members of our board, he should be commended for trying to elevate the stature and popularity of the character against some pretty formiddable indifference.
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