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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: |
Look, if Miller wanted a no doubt DD movie kill, he could have written it clear cut. But, he didn't. |
Really? Really? Matt hitting him literally right between the eyes wasn't clear cut enough for you? Plus, doesn't Matt have some bad ass cold blooded look on his face the whole time? It's literally as clear cut as it could possibly get without a thought balloon. Right between the eyes. That phrase has cultural significance. If someone says "you're gonna get it....right between the eyes" what does that mean? We all know what it means.
| rgj wrote: |
If you think Matt had a Punisher moment, you're entitled to it, I guess. But, this scene, in no way makes Matt a murderer. Just as a police sniper isn't one either if he goes for the kill shot. |
I agree. It wasn't murder insofar as it was a "just" killing. It was probably self defence or defence of others (although if you really think Matt could have disabled without killing then it's not really). So, yeah, probably not murder but definately killing.
| rgj wrote: |
p.s. I don't "dislike" MWF because of the Larks kill--heck, I didn't even say i disliked it. I actually think Miller's tale a little weak because of his retcon on Elektra, basically turning her into Typhoid Mary (a much better character). |
Yeah, if you're gonna take issue with MWF take issue with Elektra. I like the Elektra in MWF better than normal Elektra. I think that's really what divides the MWF lovers from the haters.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If someone says "you're gonna get it....right between the eyes" what does that mean? We all know what it means. |
Hey, look, you are right, Matt gave it to him between the eyes. But, that was after what?, warning him three or four times to stop shooting and give up. He was frickin' begging Larks to stop shooting and let the girl go because he knew it would leave him no alterantive but to give it to him between the eyes (although, if you think Matt could disable Larks witout jeapardizing the girl, then not really). Oh, and if someone kept shooting at me, no matter how good I was with a billy club (and surprisingly fast with it) I would really get pissed (heck, I may have just given Larks ONE warining).
| jc wrote: | | So, yeah, probably not murder but definately killing. |
Larks was definitley killed by Matt. No doubt there. Although, Larks had as much to do with that as Matt did.
| jc wrote: | | Yeah, if you're gonna take issue with MWF take issue with Elektra. I like the Elektra in MWF better than normal Elektra. I think that's really what divides the MWF lovers from the haters. |
I think MWF Elektra was a Typhoid rip-off. The fact that JRJR drew it too doesn't help, as he drew Nocenti's TM. To me, MWF Elektra just seemed silly. |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: |
I think MWF Elektra was a Typhoid rip-off. The fact that JRJR drew it too doesn't help, as he drew Nocenti's TM. |
That's a very interesting observation - and comparison. I had never put those two characters together. I think similarities exist, especially when it comes to their wild, daring sexual exploits and their proclivity for unprovoked, gratuitous violence. And the fact, as you note, that they were drawn by the same artist adds a visual similarity. That said, I wouldn't go as far as you do to call the MWF Elektra a Typhoid rip-off. Here's why:
One, I can't see Miller aping Nocenti or any other Marvel writer.
Two, I read somewhere that the MWF story was originally a screenplay Miller wrote to sell to a studio. So it makes sense that the characters and storylines would be somewhat dissimilar to - and perhaps more tantilizing than - the regular comic book.
Three, Miller has a way of turning good girls into bad girls and turning bad girls into badder girls. Check the history. Karen Page had a successful, respectable acting career before Miller converted her into a drug addicted porn star. Heather Glenn was frigile, troubled and perhaps even ditzy before Miller made her suicidal. It stands to reason that he would take his own "bad girl" creation, Elektra, and in a parallel universe separate from the existing Marvel continuity, he would change her (as he changed the others) by making her meaner, deadlier and wilder.
I think the only woman who ever got a free pass from Miller - and perhaps one can argue the only woman Miller may have ever respected - was the Black Widow. Unlike Karen, Heather and the MWF Elektra, Natasha didn't degenerate into some bizzare incarnation of herself. She remained level headed, strong, independent and loyal to Matt Murdock.
One other point...Whereas you saw a similarity between MWF Elektra and Typhoid (which is fair), I sometimes see a similarity between a level-headed Elektra and Black Widow. It's true that Elektra would never join a supergroup, but both characters have been portrayed as mercenaries for hire, which gives them shared experiences and interchangeable assisgnments. For instance, I could see the first issues of the Bendis Elektra comic book featuring the Black Widow instead of Elektra. That doesn't mean, though, that one is a rip-off of the other. They just seem somewhat alike. (In fact, I'm impatiently waiting for someone to write a mini-series that features a confrontation between Elektra and Black Widow as competing mercenaries for hire - that would be cool. Hey Brubaker - I beg you to pitch this idea to the suits. I even have a storyline bouncing around in my grey matter that you can freely use.)
Coming back to Miller (and this is going to sting!)...Black Widow notwithstanding, I think when it came to portraying women, Miller was a nasty piece of work. And for all the raves he gets for his work on Daredevil, the point readers, industry professionals and pundits (who are mostly men) seem to universally miss - or accept - is his horrible treatment of women. Sometimes I think Miller hates women.
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | p.s. I don't "dislike" MWF because of the Larks kill--heck, I didn't even say i disliked it. I actually think Miller's tale a little weak because of his retcon on Elektra, basically turning her into Typhoid Mary (a much better character). |
While I think MWF is a great DD story, I similarly have my qualms about the portrayal of Elektra there. I think it's good to make her a bit the spoiled poor little rich girl, and I think that the bed-breaking stuff was fun, but I prefer Miller's own earlier Elektra to the MWF one... Somehow I don't like her going on a killing spree just for fun (even if her victims are criminals). I frankly prefer the original Elektra, the girl who got traumatised by her father's death, and had the bad idea to join the Hand to infiltrate them: personally, I like the innoent girl gone sour of her original origins
(Sorry for the Off-topic, we're here to discuss Mr. Murdock  )
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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