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DareDevil #87 SPOILERS
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hekate32 wrote:
For those who like me, have little patience or will-power and always want to open their presents early, I saw another four pages from next month's issue in an article at Silverbullet.

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/115455253635890.htm


It's a great website. Wink

I'm going to hold off reading these previews, I think. I was already spoiled on this issue's two surprises, and I quite want to go into the next stand-alone issue cold.
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Forrest
Lowlife


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:
As fierce as DD#86 was, DD#87 felt anti-climactic.


I simply cannot disaree with you more. I think #87 was a brilliant transition to the second part of this story into who's behind these attacks on Matt. I could feel the energy radiating off the book with every page! Matt played the warden, got a hand from the Punisher (throwing significant public doubt into Matt Murdock = DD), etc. The cherry on top was seeing him leave the country with a fake passport. Very Happy

I definitely would not consider #87 to be anti-clamatic on any level. In fact, I loved the Iron Fist reveal because it was a solid indication that Brubaker is sticking to outstanding story telling with DD, rather than the shock and hype that has infested most of Marvel & DC comics these days. DD has long been a haven from the pitfalls of most other comics, and I think with Brubaker it will stay that way. (Compare the logical reveal of 2nd DD = Iron Fist to the shock and awe, nobody-will-guess-this-one-gimmick reveal of mystery Avenger = Echo.)
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fox_limbo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
fox_limbo wrote:
As fierce as DD#86 was, DD#87 felt anti-climactic.


I simply cannot disaree with you more. I think #87 was a brilliant transition to the second part of this story into who's behind these attacks on Matt. I could feel the energy radiating off the book with every page! Matt played the warden, got a hand from the Punisher (throwing significant public doubt into Matt Murdock = DD), etc. The cherry on top was seeing him leave the country with a fake passport. Very Happy

I definitely would not consider #87 to be anti-clamatic on any level. In fact, I loved the Iron Fist reveal because it was a solid indication that Brubaker is sticking to outstanding story telling with DD, rather than the shock and hype that has infested most of Marvel & DC comics these days. DD has long been a haven from the pitfalls of most other comics, and I think with Brubaker it will stay that way. (Compare the logical reveal of 2nd DD = Iron Fist to the shock and awe, nobody-will-guess-this-one-gimmick reveal of mystery Avenger = Echo.)


I agree with you, Forest, in the fact that this is / was a very, very well-thought-out plot-point, no doubt about that. It did not follow the over-hype of other such "mystery character" threads other series have suffered with. And (most importantly of all) it was, for the most part, well done. Although, it could stand to have had more of a build-up (i.e. more appearances by the "other" Daredevil) and more suspense, but that is neither here nor there. What I more responded to was how rushed and forced the developments of the entire issue. It easily could have been a double-sized issue and left that specific part of the story room to breathe (hell, Bendis could have done a six-issue arc on the developments in DD#87, alone). Because the "reveal" of Danny Rand as Daredevil (along with the Punisher-assisted escape and the fumbling investigation into Alton Lennox) wasn't handled as lushly, or as the brilliantly, as the rest of the arc. Not in the least. They way it all was portrayed at the end left a bad taste for me. It works... but, for me, only barely.

Or maybe it's just the fact I'm in a frickin' cranky mood.

Regardless of the above comments, the arc as a whole is absolutely stellar and proves to be one of the very best Daredevil yarns, bar-none. Even though I've voiced my disappointment, I have complete and utter faith in Ed Brubaker to spear-head this ship.
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Forrest
Lowlife


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:
(hell, Bendis could have done a six-issue arc on the developments in DD#87, alone)


Well, anyone could make an eventful issue, like #87, into a six issue arc, but I think that is a betrayl of the medium and the readers. Bendis was notorious for six issue arc that covered less story than the average Nocenti single issue. For over half a year, I was waiting around for Decalogue to just end already! Razz Bendis's DD often times read more like coffee shop chatter than a superhero comic.

The three worst illnesses of modern monthly comics are excessive hype, shallow "shocking" reveals, and Bendis-like drivel drawing out ever little plot development to maximize the ratio of # of issues per actual story. With some famous writers, even the most mundane one-shot plot is given the six/seven month treatment these days (e.g. Decalogue, Golden Age, One Year Later Batman, etc.).

So, I'm quite glad that every month, Brubaker's DD is jam packed with story, even if that requires less detail into little things, like the ~detective work in finding out Lennox left the country, etc.
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fox_limbo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
fox_limbo wrote:
(hell, Bendis could have done a six-issue arc on the developments in DD#87, alone)


Well, anyone could make an eventful issue, like #87, into a six issue arc, but I think that is a betrayl of the medium and the readers. Bendis was notorious for six issue arc that covered less story than the average Nocenti single issue. For over half a year, I was waiting around for Decalogue to just end already! Razz Bendis's DD often times read more like coffee shop chatter than a superhero comic.

The three worst illnesses of modern monthly comics are excessive hype, shallow "shocking" reveals, and Bendis-like drivel drawing out ever little plot development to maximize the ratio of # of issues per actual story. With some famous writers, even the most mundane one-shot plot is given the six/seven month treatment these days (e.g. Decalogue, Golden Age, One Year Later Batman, etc.).

So, I'm quite glad that every month, Brubaker's DD is jam packed with story, even if that requires less detail into little things, like the ~detective work in finding out Lennox left the country, etc.


Good point.

I meant what you quoted out of off-humor jest.

In any case, you are very right, Forest. Brian Michael Bendis had ushered in the more long-running, drawn out and some (including myself, to some extent, would say "character-driven") arcs that have seemingly sprouted up over a number of Marvel titles, most of which Bendis, himself, had penned. As far as the over-hype, which is blatantly obvious and growing more and more tiresome (rarely does the product ever satisfy the promise). Bendis epitomizes the word "hype". For better or for worse, he created a buzz around his work. But "hype" was very apparent before Bendis ever picked up a pen. It has always been there, and like it or not, it will continue to be a fixture.

Your discussion of an "eventful issue" points to DD#87. My definition of an eventful issue is DD#86. The frenzied developments in last month's issue runs circles around the latest one. Where last issue ended with a blistering cliffhanger, after a rivoting rifle-shot from cover-to-cover. To me, the beginning, and arguably the entirity, of DD#87 was running on a much lower gear, in my opinion.

Still, one point you made is abundantly spot-on. The pacing of Ed Brubaker's Daredevil. It is much, much more break-neck than Bendis's more methodical approach. And it is a very welcome one, too. His pacing is very crisp and this first arc, for the most part, moved very fluidly.

Essentially, all I'm saying is I would have written the ending a bit differently (this coming from someone who is aspiring to have a couple of his own fiction yarns published, hopefully, in the near future), but the way Ed Brubaker set the chessboard up and moved the pieces, leading up to the ending, was absolute genius.
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Pete
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great exchange here between fox 'n' Forrest. I can't comment on the issue in question yet as I've yet to read it. #86 was eventful, by which I mean things moved at a pace that hasn't been seen in the title for ages. I'm on record here in saying that #85 was a bit of a dissapointment for me in the way it actually reminded me of a Bendis type pacing. I loved the Bendis/Maleev run, yet hope the Bru issues bear their own distinctive attributes. I know he's picking up were Bendis left off, but I don't want to read sub-par Bendis. Judging by what I've read thus far, its looking good.

As for him being an 'absolute genius', yeah. Becky is back. Of course he is.

And the 'hype' thing? I think you both make valid points here. It is prevelant. Yet it has been around for ages. Stan Lee created the Marvel Universe and was never one to hold back on the hype. Almost every Marvel cover of the sixties at one point proclaims the contents therein to be the Best Thing Ever. The Fantastic Four bore the 'World's Greatest Comic Magazine' tag from about #3. That's like, early 1962? The Marvel Bullpen Bulletins page was the Capital of Hype.

I do think, however, that in all these cases the hype was actually justified. Lee changed the face of an industry. As much as I love the Bendis run on DD, I soon learned to switch off from the hype that surrounded each new issue, as it just couldn't live up to that level of expectation. I think its a problem with the industry in general these days, has been since around the early 1990's, and Joey Q seems to revel in it. Now, I love Guardian Devil, but I don't see him changing the face of the industry. Unless you count the above average amount of stuff I see coming out of Marvel that is unoriginal, pretentious and dull.

Too many creators sprang up in the wake of the genius of the likes of Miller and Moore in the mid to late 1980's that did one or two 'good things' and thought they were revolutionising comic books. The hype said they were. They probably started to believe it themselves. A short time later and I can't even remember who they were or what they did.

I know I'll read Bendis/Maleev in years to come and love it, but I'll love it for all the right reasons, and not the hype that Bendis and so many of his contemporaries revel in.
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Forrest
Lowlife


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call, Pete!

Good points on Stan Lee's hype. I LOVE Stan Lee's work! That mixed with the fact that I'm reading it ~40 years later, after he really did revolutionize comics and superheros, the hype seems so very justified. Not just that, his zanny style made the hype an energetic part of the book, like a circus ringleader's hype. While modern comic hype comes across more like a politician's hype.

I think Brubaker's first arc has quite clearly stated that he has no intention of emulating Bendis's DD style. We're going to Europe!!! Very Happy
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Pete
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
I LOVE Stan Lee's work! That mixed with the fact that I'm reading it ~40 years later, after he really did revolutionize comics and superheros, the hype seems so very justified.


Indeed. To read any comic book pre - 'Fantastic Four #1 is to step into another world. As innovative as Siegal and Schuster with Superman, or Bob Kane and Bill Finger with Batman were, (and any comic book superhero owes so much to these creators) it's all one dimensional to the stuff produced by Lee, Kirby, Ditko etc. Anything after FF #1, especially Marvel, and you can clearly see the link to modern-day superhero comic books. Sure it seems tame by todays standards, even corny to some. But there is a clear link between then and now.

I think part of Lee's genius actually goes overlooked. Yeah, he created or co-created all these great characters. Lots of 'em. It could have been easy to spread the workload and just to sit back and watch the money roll in. Comic books weren't considered 'high art' or anything back then. But when the workload became too great he wasn't prepared to hand over the reins on some titles until the right guy came along. And it was a stroke of genius that he waited and picked people like Roy Thomas etc
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed 100%, Pete! I have not doubt that Stan Lee is and may always be the greatest comic creator ever. To this day, Stan Lee is one of my favorite DD writers.
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Clayton Blind Love
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"In Mortal Combat with... Sub-Mariner!"

Enough said!

C.
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