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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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 Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: Are Kingpin and Bullseye overexposed? |
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| Have Bullseye and Kingpin become overexposed? are they in danger of becomming stale? Should they take a vacation? Should some other rogue take center stage for a while? |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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No but the idea that they are certainly gets too much play.
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the truebeliever
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 80
Location: Starke, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I think we should take a break from the never ending battle ending battle triangle of Daredevil, Kingpin, and Bullseye. I love them always fighting but I think it's time for a break. Bring the other characters like The Owl busting out of prison. Better yet they should continue the story of Vanessa Fisk. They forgot about her a long time ago and I think it's a good time to pick up and tie up that loose end. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | No but the idea that they are certainly gets too much play. |
Whatever man, I'm sorry but their so overexposed that their just recyling the same stories with those characters, how many times can Bullseye kill or try kill one of DD's girlfriend, how many times can DD destroy the Kingpin's empire, cause a gang war, only for him to rebuild the empire a little while later. If their going keep using these villains over and over again, you think they could at least not have do reclying the same plot lines over and over again.
Besides how can you say Bullseye isn't overexposed after all those minis? |
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Blind Alley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 292
Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Isn't Daredevil too overexposed ? You know, with his looong ongoing series and all those minis ? 
In an interview, writer Warren Ellis said comics fans don't really want to read new things. They want the old things, done better. It's a bit cynical but it has some truth...
Anyway, it is possible to write good stories just by using existing characters. Creating new ones or transfering some from other series doesn't always lead to good effect.
For instance, the fact that Mysterio (a Spidey villain) was responsible for Karen Page's death (indirectly) in Gardian Devil felt a bit unsatisfaying for me.
And by the way, killing Karen was a bad idea. I'd rather read romances and breaks up from Matt & Karen than silly new love interests as Echo (a poorly done Typhoid-Elektra etc).
I mean by killing Karen, Kevin Smith took away a part of the mythos of the DD series. He denied to following writers the possibility to use her.
Kevin Smith crippled the series for a so-so result in his 8 issues.
In just 6 issues, Brubaker did much much better (and Foggy isn't even dead).
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Solid Snake PAC
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Conroe, Tx
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| so far...i like the way DDs gone from the death of Page...especially with Bru on it now... |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Blind Alley wrote: | Isn't Daredevil too overexposed ? You know, with his looong ongoing series and all those minis ?
In an interview, writer Warren Ellis said comics fans don't really want to read new things. They want the old things, done better. It's a bit cynical but it has some truth...
Anyway, it is possible to write good stories just by using existing characters. Creating new ones or transfering some from other series doesn't always lead to good effect.
For instance, the fact that Mysterio (a Spidey villain) was responsible for Karen Page's death (indirectly) in Gardian Devil felt a bit unsatisfaying for me.
And by the way, killing Karen was a bad idea. I'd rather read romances and breaks up from Matt & Karen than silly new love interests as Echo (a poorly done Typhoid-Elektra etc).
I mean by killing Karen, Kevin Smith took away a part of the mythos of the DD series. He denied to following writers the possibility to use her.
Kevin Smith crippled the series for a so-so result in his 8 issues.
In just 6 issues, Brubaker did much much better (and Foggy isn't even dead). |
Overexposeur works differently on heroes, than villains, you silly goose. 
Seriously though since villains move the plot, it is easier to get sick of them, then heroes, that is villains are often more interesting than heroes, but if see the villains too often, it ruins their mystique. Take the Joker for example, he is very important to the Batman mythos and is a very good villain, but at this point, he is overexposed and so over the top evil, that I just wonder why someone hasn't killed him yet.
You know there DD villains that exist out there besides Kingpin and Bullseye, so one can tell good stories with prexisting characters besides Bullseye and Kingpin. You may say most of those villains are lame and you would be correct, but remember Kingpin and Bullseye were pretty lame before miller revamped them and some old DD villains, like Purple Man have been revamped into very scarey villains. I'm not saying get rid of these villains, their good villains and good villains are hard to come by, but perhaps they should be given a vacation so they can avoid becomming stale and stay fresh.
If Bullseye appears too often the reaction goes from "OMG its Bullseye, what is DD going to do now" to one like this" Oh, its Bullseye, again, I guess we see DD will beat him like a drum again." Besides Kingpin has been shot and Bullseye has just recovered from his injuries, they should both stay in prison for while, lick their wounds and make a really glorious return after a suitible recovery peroid. |
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Gee
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 119
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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i agree that some non bullseye/kingpin stories would be nice to read, they are dd's arch villans however and will continue to be a big part of the dd mythology, as well they should.
i would love to see a return of the purple man, the owl can also be great. also sending dd against some big guys would be awesome, was his fight vs the absorbing man not voted his best ever? its great to see dd outgunned and having to think his way to beating an opponent.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Gee wrote: | i agree that some non bullseye/kingpin stories would be nice to read, they are dd's arch villans however and will continue to be a big part of the dd mythology, as well they should.
i would love to see a return of the purple man, the owl can also be great. also sending dd against some big guys would be awesome, was his fight vs the absorbing man not voted his best ever? its great to see dd outgunned and having to think his way to beating an opponent. |
I'm not saying get rid of Kingpin and Bullseye, they are good villains and are indeed important to mythos. I'm just saying that if they are used all the time, they are in danger of losing their impact and becomming stale.
Its the same with other villains, the Joker is really important to the Batman mythos, but he is so overused the character has become stale. The Joker is so overused, that it seems like he escapes Arkham every week, goes on a killing spree, gets captured by Batman, only to escape the next week, at this point I'm wondering why someone hasn't killed him. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | No but the idea that they are certainly gets too much play. |
Whatever man, I'm sorry but their so overexposed that their just recyling the same stories with those characters, how many times can Bullseye kill or try kill one of DD's girlfriend, how many times can DD destroy the Kingpin's empire, cause a gang war, only for him to rebuild the empire a little while later. If their going keep using these villains over and over again, you think they could at least not have do reclying the same plot lines over and over again.
Besides how can you say Bullseye isn't overexposed after all those minis? |
But how many times has Bullseye killed or tryed to kill one of DD's girlfriends? Like three? Elektra. Karen. Milla. I guess he tried to kill Blackwidow before but that doesn't count cuz he would have tried to kill her anyway. Three times in the whole history of DD.
As for Kingpin you say "how many times can DD destroy the Kingpin's empire, cause a gang war, only for him to rebuild the empire a little while later"? At my count this has happened twice. First during Last Rites and then again during Hardcore. Of course the way in which Kingpin was brought down in those instances were vastly different so I'm not even sure anyone should care that there was repetition.
Look, if you describe each instance that DD fights KP and BE in super vague terms (i.e. "they fight") then of course it seem repetitious. In reality, however, it ain't.
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So why can't you see the funny side?
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Are Kingpin and Bullseye overexposed? |
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| The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | Have Bullseye and Kingpin become overexposed? are they in danger of becomming stale? Should they take a vacation? Should some other rogue take center stage for a while? |
Yep.
DD should take on different superpowered and unpowered villains, which is exactly what Brubaker seems to be doing.
While I agree that Kingpin and Bullseye are being overused, I think there could be fascinating Vanessa Fisk stories.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | No but the idea that they are certainly gets too much play. |
Whatever man, I'm sorry but their so overexposed that their just recyling the same stories with those characters, how many times can Bullseye kill or try kill one of DD's girlfriend, how many times can DD destroy the Kingpin's empire, cause a gang war, only for him to rebuild the empire a little while later. If their going keep using these villains over and over again, you think they could at least not have do reclying the same plot lines over and over again.
Besides how can you say Bullseye isn't overexposed after all those minis? |
But how many times has Bullseye killed or tryed to kill one of DD's girlfriends? Like three? Elektra. Karen. Milla. I guess he tried to kill Blackwidow before but that doesn't count cuz he would have tried to kill her anyway. Three times in the whole history of DD.
As for Kingpin you say "how many times can DD destroy the Kingpin's empire, cause a gang war, only for him to rebuild the empire a little while later"? At my count this has happened twice. First during Last Rites and then again during Hardcore. Of course the way in which Kingpin was brought down in those instances were vastly different so I'm not even sure anyone should care that there was repetition.
Look, if you describe each instance that DD fights KP and BE in super vague terms (i.e. "they fight") then of course it seem repetitious. In reality, however, it ain't. |
We have to take into account that Kingpin and Bullseye have really only become overexposed in the last ten years or so. Take Bullseye, in 2000 he killed Karen Page and in his next major appearance he tries to kill Milla. Also the fallout from Last Rites lasted over years, just as the fallout from Underboss has (Hardcore is an extension of the fallout from Underboss).
It also may have only happened twice, the length of those two occurances makes the distance between less relevant. If Kingpin returns again, won't just he try to rebuild his empire again and thus it would be possible that DD will just knock it down again in the next few years.
Besides logically both Bullseye and Kingpin need to time to recover from their past defeats. Kingpin is wounded and still in prison, Bullseye also only recently recovered from his injuries and is still in prison (it kinda pissed me off that Bullseye was able to recover from 2 broken legs so quickly, felt like plot device to me.) They need to time recover, lick their wounds, plot and scheme on how to best enact their revenge. Kingpin needs to time for his wounds to heal and to find a way to beat that murder charge, such actions would not occur in a few weeks. after a suitable time has past, after Kingpin and Bullseye have recovered their defeats and are ready to for revenge, then they should explode on the scene. That will have a greater impact then those two making their play right away, which would make them like sloppy and impatient.
Last edited by The Overlord on Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Are Kingpin and Bullseye overexposed? |
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| Forrest wrote: | | The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | Have Bullseye and Kingpin become overexposed? are they in danger of becomming stale? Should they take a vacation? Should some other rogue take center stage for a while? |
Yep.
DD should take on different superpowered and unpowered villains, which is exactly what Brubaker seems to be doing.
While I agree that Kingpin and Bullseye are being overused, I think there could be fascinating Vanessa Fisk stories. |
That's interesting, perhaps they should touch on Sammy Silke's dad, have him come to NYC to take over the mobs and get revenge for his son's death. He had been mentioned a lot in Underboss so it may cool to see him in person, in his own arc. Also now that many of the big crime bosses are now in jail (Kingpin, Hammerhead, Owl, Jigsaw, etc) perhaps some of the super powered freaks could be causing choas in Hell's kitchen, while DD was in prison perhaps bring back some old foes like Purple Man, Mr. Hyde, Mr. Fear, Typhoid Mary, perhaps use some villains from other parts of the MU universe like Taskmaster or even introduce some new foes. All of that will give Kingpin and Bullseye time to recover from their defeats, plan their revenge and really explode on the scene at a later date. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The Master Meglomaniac wrote: |
Besides logically both Bullseye and Kingpin need to time to recover from their past defeats. Kingpin is wounded and still in prison, Bullseye also only recently recovered from his injuries and is still in prison (it kinda pissed me off that Bullseye was able to recover from 2 broken legs so quickly, felt like plot device to me.) They need to time recover, lick their wounds, plot and scheme on how to best enact their revenge. Kingpin needs to time for his wounds to healand to find a way to beat that murder charge, such actions would not occur in a few weeks. after a suitable time has past, after Kingpin and Bullseye have recovered their defeats and are ready to for revenge, then they should explode on the scene. That will have a greater impact then those two making their play right away, which would make them like sloppy and impatient. |
Wait, so now you're saying that there are long intervals between similar BE/KP stories? And that's what makes them over exposed? Surely you're kidding.
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So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | The Master Meglomaniac wrote: |
Besides logically both Bullseye and Kingpin need to time to recover from their past defeats. Kingpin is wounded and still in prison, Bullseye also only recently recovered from his injuries and is still in prison (it kinda pissed me off that Bullseye was able to recover from 2 broken legs so quickly, felt like plot device to me.) They need to time recover, lick their wounds, plot and scheme on how to best enact their revenge. Kingpin needs to time for his wounds to healand to find a way to beat that murder charge, such actions would not occur in a few weeks. after a suitable time has past, after Kingpin and Bullseye have recovered their defeats and are ready to for revenge, then they should explode on the scene. That will have a greater impact then those two making their play right away, which would make them like sloppy and impatient. |
Wait, so now you're saying that there are long intervals between similar BE/KP stories? And that's what makes them over exposed? Surely you're kidding. |
There are not long intervals in between BE/KP appearances, not is not what I'm saying and that does not support facts. Kingpin and Bullseye have both appeared in the last two arcs, one after the other, how does that consititue a "long interval"? What I said is there should be a long interval between their appearance Devil in Cell Block D and KP/BE's next appearance. |
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