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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: Oh Marvel. So much head shaking. |
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Over at Newsarama someone noted that when people talk about serious comics they talk about V for Vendetta, Watchmen, Preacher and Sandman. The reader asked Joey Q why no Marvel titles are on that list (a list that I'll just note is 100% Vertigo). Joey Q said this:
| Quote: | All of those projects you’re mentioning happened a long time ago. First, V wasn’t originally published for DC but rather by Warrior and its initial publication date was 25 years ago. Watchmen was first published 21 years ago, Sandman 19 years ago and Preacher 12 years ago. What you're talking about is a very long period in history spanning 25 years, this new Marvel regime has been here for a bit more than six years.
That said, I would argue that there are things that we’re publishing that perhaps 12, 19, heck maybe 25 years from now will be look upon as fondly by people, but I couldn’t tell you that for certain as I’m not a fortune teller. What I can tell you is that I’m proud of books like Astonishing X-Men, The Ultimates, Civil War, Dark Tower, Daredevil, Captain America, Nextwave, Ultimate Spider-Man, Eternals, etc., etc. And that’s not looking back at past projects but this year alone.
There is no question that DC had a period of some very good writing and a handful of stellar writers that would have never set foot in Marvel at the time, that’s why I was reading their stuff in that era, Marvel didn’t appeal to me at the time. But, it’s a new day and a different time and I think the level of the sophistication of what we’re doing is the strongest in the industry and with the exception of Alan Moore on your list, Gaiman and Ennis both do outstanding work for us currently.
Let the arguments ensue. |
Once again I just have a feeling "oh for the love of god". Joey Q's response is "too far" in about ten different ways. The whole thing is just so dishonest it makes me want to throw up.
First off, his point about all these books happening "a long time ago" is just garbage. Sure, Preacher started 12 years ago but it only ended six years ago. His V for Vendetta point is equally misleading. The series started in Warrior but was then abandoned and, in effect, saved and completed at DC years later. The fact that DC had to save it and had the wherewithall to do so should count in favour of DC.
The Marvel titles he trots out as potential classics is virtually madness. Astonishing X-Men, The Ultimates, Civil War, Dark Tower, Daredevil, Captain America, Nextwave, Ultimate Spider-Man, Eternals? Really? I love Daredevil. I super love Astonishing and I super, super love Nextwave but to pretend that any of those three come near to Preacher is just crazy. Uttering Civil War in the same breath as Watchmen is so far beyond crazy I don't even want to think about it.
But by far the worst part of Joey's nonsense is the end where he points out that DC "had a period of some very good writing" and that he thinks "the level of the sophistication of what we’re doing is the strongest in the industry". This is ridiculously insulting to the people over at Vertigo who are continuing to pump out superior comics. Y the Last Man, Fables, Pride of Bagdad, DMZ....the list just goes on and on. To suggest that DC "had a good period" but that it's over now is simply a lie. Suggesting that Marvel has a higher level of sophistication than Vertigo is just mind boggling.
It's all just so sad.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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I fall for it every time. Every week I go on Newsarama and click on that darn Joe's Friday. Hoping it will contain something that doesn't make me lose faith in the future of the Marvel Universe.
And every time, nothing. Starting from that horrid picture in black and white, and ending with the last of those monologues they call answers, and that look like answers just because Quesada pretends to address the submitter in the first line.
-sigh- |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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The craziest thing is the that whole Joe Fridays thing is supposed to be Joey Q sitting down and being real with the fans. Then he sits down and compares Ultimate Spider-man to Watchmen. Sigh, indeed.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | The craziest thing is the that whole Joe Fridays thing is supposed to be Joey Q sitting down and being real with the fans. Then he sits down and compares Ultimate Spider-man to Watchmen. Sigh, indeed. |
I really enjoyed Ultimate Spider-Man. Those first 12-13 issues that were collected in the Volume 1 Hardcopy were taut re-imaginings of the original mythology. Having said that, how can one compare it to Watchmen? Watchmen was a bold, complex, creative, multi-layered tale that was chock full of ideas and innovations. There are so many facets to that book that I find myself thinking about 2 years after I read it. There are so many concepts that I probably didn’t ‘get’ but hopefully will in successive readings. My point is that they are on vastly different levels. Ultimate S-M was entertaining. Watchmen was mind-blowing.
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Oh Marvel. So much head shaking. |
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| Quote: | | [. . .] it’s a new day and a different time and I think the level of the sophistication of what we’re doing is the strongest in the industry [. . .] |
This is the part I love because I see the sophistication of Marvel actually going downhill. Back in the days of Bendis on Alias, Morrison on X-Men, Millar confined to Ultimates, Strazynski in his honeymoon in Amazing Spider-man, etc. Just a few years ago, Marvel had a far more sophisticated tone. They went from there to a level more closely approaching FOX News. "Sophistication" is not a term I'd use to describe Marvel's current overall direction. It's say "sensationalism," "hype," "genius marketing," etc., but not "sophistication."
At the same time, I have found myself reading Planet Hulk and I actually really like it. I think Peter David is a far more sophisticated writer than Bendis and Millar put together. So, World War Hulk might turn out well... unless they end up killing Hulk...
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Oh Marvel. So much head shaking. |
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| Forrest wrote: | | At the same time, I have found myself reading Planet Hulk and I actually really like it. I think Peter David is a far more sophisticated writer than Bendis and Millar put together. So, World War Hulk might turn out well... unless they end up killing Hulk... |
Peter David hasn't been writing Planet Hulk. Greg Pak writes that. Peter David twenty years ago was good. When he returned to Hulk a few years ago, the dropoff in quality was astounding, especially since Bruce Jones had just completed his epic run. (Although it went on quite a bit too long.) When Planet Hulk started I was worried it wasn't going anywhere, but it ended up taking the Hulk character in a fantastic new direction.
Anyway, how can you compare anything Marvel does to anything Vertigo has done? Most Vertigo stories introduce characters, flesh them out, have them deal with conflicts, and then end. No Marvel story can ever do that. Joe Quesada doesn't have a leg to stand on with the points he's trying to make, but he should really be realistic about what he's trying to accomplish at Marvel. He can't possibly believe that Civil War is anything close Watchmen or Sandman. Sad if he does. |
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fox_limbo
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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It has nothing to do with the companies (Marvel, DC, etc.), per si. It has everything to do with the creative talent that spear-head the projects. The savvy reader (i.e. NOT the rabid, "fan boy" types) can recognize when the creative people actually care about a project, rather than pumping feces out simply for a paycheck (the more they happen to pump out, the more lucrative the paychecks). There are people that actually care about the work they do, there are people that actually make a personal and creative investment in their work; and that makes a world of difference.
But there are also people that are lightyears more talented and have matured further in their skill than others.
People can talk about companies all they want (and, yes, there are some companies that have their finger on the pulse of the industry moreso than others), but to me, if the creators have talent and if they put their heart and soul into it, it will be noticable and other projects that have less heart invested in them would greatly, greatly pale in comparison. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Isn't Vertigo DC's imprint for creator-owned projects? Then, over time, Marvel may end up publishing something along that level under their Icon imprint. (Like Criminal.) |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: |
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As far as I know Vertigo isn't "creator owned". It's simply an imprint that tries to further comic's boundries by publishing and encouraging original work. Seems to be a good plan because Vertigo is so, so, so far beyond anything else out there it's scary. There are many Vertigo-like books out there that are good but no one even comes close to Vertigo's track record.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Oh Marvel. So much head shaking. |
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| Dimetre wrote: |
Peter David hasn't been writing Planet Hulk. Greg Pak writes that. Peter David twenty years ago was good. When he returned to Hulk a few years ago, the dropoff in quality was astounding, especially since Bruce Jones had just completed his epic run. |
A kinda sucky epic run. Even the seemingly bored/tired Peter David that came after him could still write Hulk better than that nonsensical plot Jones forced to Hulk readers..
| Quote: | When Planet Hulk started I was worried it wasn't going anywhere, but it ended up taking the Hulk character in a fantastic new direction.
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"Outlander stranded in a savage world, who ends up becoming the hero of said world". Fantastic? Maybe. But new? Not. |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Oh Marvel. So much head shaking. |
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| Forrest wrote: | | Quote: | | [. . .] it’s a new day and a different time and I think the level of the sophistication of what we’re doing is the strongest in the industry [. . .] |
This is the part I love because I see the sophistication of Marvel actually going downhill. Back in the days of Bendis on Alias, Morrison on X-Men, Millar confined to Ultimates, Strazynski in his honeymoon in Amazing Spider-man, etc. Just a few years ago, Marvel had a far more sophisticated tone. They went from there to a level more closely approaching FOX News. "Sophistication" is not a term I'd use to describe Marvel's current overall direction. It's say "sensationalism," "hype," "genius marketing," etc., but not "sophistication." |
It’s DC’s fault that Marvel is in the bind it’s in. Well, somewhat, anyway. The success of DC’s recent (past 2-3 years’) events seem to have put added pressure on Marvel to have their own event every year now. As others have mentioned, these events now drive the Marvel bus more than the individual creators. It is a shame. Marvel has many fine creators who are probably busting a hump to give their best work, but they’re forced into a specific context, that is, House of M, Civil War, Planet Hulk, Cap’s death, etc. I think some of the creators jump in and have a blast with the event ideas, but others who want to pursue the ideas that they’ve been building to, have to now incorporate the big event into their stories, and it derails their “story train”. What makes this worse, to me, is that Marvel has such difficulty in keeping the events themselves on track. What I’m referring to are the discrepancies between titles covering aspects of the big event. This, I’m guessing, is an editorial problem. Perhaps not with individual editors, but with the overall editorial system. Hmm, who would be responsible for overall editing? The editor-in-chief? Here’s one example that has been sticking in my craw for the last week. Spoiler alert for those who care, but haven’t yet read these issues.
In Bendis’ New Avengers 28, the renegade Avengers hear that Captain America is not dead and that his body is at the Raft at Rikers. They send Dr. Strange (now an Avenger?!) to scope out the scene and he says that the body is really there. The Avengers, including Wolverine go to see what’s really going on, and it winds up that Iron Man has set a trap.
Now, in Jeph Loeb’s Fallen Son 1, Wolverine just can’t believe that Cap is really dead and wants to see for himself what’s really true. So, with the help of Dr. Strange, he breaks into the Shield Helicarrier to check out Cap’s body. He finds that it is him and that he’s really dead. He is also discovered by Iron Man who, understanding Wolvie’s grief, lets him go.
These are 2 extremely similar, yet different scenarios, featuring the same lead characters but acting in different ways. I just don’t understand how this can be allowed. Forget continuity, although I am one of those who has a hard time doing that, but what about emotional impact? I thought the Loeb story was quite poignant and made some sense but the New Avengers story seriously undercuts it and takes away much of the emotional impact. I just don’t understand how editorial can allow this. In a perfect world, they would care about such things, but, as we know, the world, especially the 616 universe is far from perfect. To make matters even more bizarre, in my mind, is the fact that the 2 stories were drawn by the same artist, Leinil Yu. Didn’t he notice that he was drawing the same basic scenes, with the same basic characters, but in different context, with different results? I’m sorry for the lengthy rant, but I just don’t get it.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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That's a big one there, Neil.
What do you say, guys? Should we submit it to Joe Fridays? What do you think he would answer? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Oh Marvel. So much head shaking. |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | Forrest wrote: | | At the same time, I have found myself reading Planet Hulk and I actually really like it. I think Peter David is a far more sophisticated writer than Bendis and Millar put together. So, World War Hulk might turn out well... unless they end up killing Hulk... |
Peter David hasn't been writing Planet Hulk. Greg Pak writes that. |
Of course. My sentences ran into each other in an awkward way. I had two fairly independent thoughts there:
1) I like Planet Hulk and this is the first time I every really got into the Hulk.
2) I'm hoping that WWH will be better than House of M and Civil War because Peter David, the writer of WWH is a more sophisticated writer than Bendis and Millar put together.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Marvel's level of sophistication? Well the EISNER nominations just came out (check newsarama). So, who comes out on top? DC has 18 nominations and 7 shared. Marvel got 9 nominations and 2 shares. Errrr. And 5 of Marvel's nominations are Bru books. Poor Marvel.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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hylozoii
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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I click on Joe Fridays for the new pictures. Enough of the Marvel bashing. Watchmen was boring British rhetoric. There I finally said it. Marvel is like NBC's Friends. Bad comedy but they give what customers want: fast-paced, fun, non-complex cliffhangers with good art. Sophistication? Not so much.
Geebus, Friends was an awful show but you couldn't argue the results. |
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