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jmp85
Flying Blind
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 2
Location: cleveland
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 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: Daredevil's Religion 2 |
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Assuming God and religious references are present throughout the comic, do you think Daredevil's theme of tragedy is maybe intentionally or unintentionally being supported by the notion of man's imperfection?
Also, i know this is stretching it a bit, but isnt it ironic that Matt is carrying out the will of his 'father' who emphasizes peace and he is a blind man given the ability to see again. |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Religion 2 |
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First of all, thanks for inspiring one of the most, well, inspired discussions I've ever seen on this board (and I think most people agree, regardless of what their specific stance on the issue is)!
| jmp85 wrote: | | Assuming God and religious references are present throughout the comic, do you think Daredevil's theme of tragedy is maybe intentionally or unintentionally being supported by the notion of man's imperfection? |
My own feeling is that God and religious references are not generally present in Daredevil, so I can't make the assumption you're pointing to here. The idea of "imperfection" is clear though, I suppose, and not just in Daredevil but in many of the flawed heros Marvel put out at the time. But sure, DD is definitely a flawed hero in more or less obvious ways - physically, morally, psychologically...
| jmp85 wrote: | | Also, i know this is stretching it a bit, but isnt it ironic that Matt is carrying out the will of his 'father' who emphasizes peace and he is a blind man given the ability to see again. |
Well, he's not techically carrying out the will of his father, so I'd have to disagree. He's honoring his father, I suppose, but his methods are not something his father would condone.
As far as his powers are concerned, I think the whole idea behind the character was simply to take the "justice is blind" premise and then combine that with the popular myth that a person's remaining senses are enhanced when losing one sense. Add some radioactivity to that (the medium of choice in the 60's...) and voilá! At the very least, I don't see any kind of religious significance here.
You mentioned "tragedy" further up, and that's a more obvious theme for me. I think it's significant that he is what he is, partly as a result of losing something. He gained his powers at the cost of his sight (which he hasn't in any complete sense regained), and it was the loss of his father that prompted him to put on the costume. Even the deliberate choices he makes often come at great cost to himself and those around him. Most of what he has has come at great sacrifice and that's much more interesting, to me at least, than the relatively smooth ride experienced by some other heros.
I'm sure one could read all kinds of biblical themes into this book and the character, but I've never seen it that way myself. I'm interested to hear what others have to say though.
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Religion 2 |
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| jmp85 wrote: | | Assuming God and religious references are present throughout the comic, do you think Daredevil's theme of tragedy is maybe intentionally or unintentionally being supported by the notion of man's imperfection? |
Like jumonji said, I don't think it's generally present throughout the comic. Select writers play in the religious sandbox. Some are more skillful at it than others.
...What else would tragedy be supported by? I don't think the point you're trying to make would resonate. Most tragedies are a result of some imperfection. No new ground is being broken should you claim this.
| jmp85 wrote: | | Also, i know this is stretching it a bit, but isnt it ironic that Matt is carrying out the will of his 'father' who emphasizes peace and he is a blind man given the ability to see again. |
I'll bite my tongue. But yeah, it is indeed stretching it a bit. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Religion 2 |
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| jmp85 wrote: |
Also, i know this is stretching it a bit, but isnt it ironic that Matt is carrying out the will of his 'father' who emphasizes peace and he is a blind man given the ability to see again. |
Wait, isn't Matt explicitly not carrying out the will of his father?
I thought the big thing was that Jack didn't want Matt to be all punchy punchy. Guess what? Matt is all punchy punchy.
Also: I might be wrong (especially since virtually all my knowledge of Christianity comes from the sublime Jesus Christ Superstar) but since when did Jesus become blind and then be given the ability to see again? For that matter when was Matt given the ability to see again? Like that one issue with the Beyonder? Stetching. Indeed.
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So why can't you see the funny side?
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Religion 2 |
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I've got to go with the majority on this one. I don't feel there is much overt religion in the book, as a general rule. I believe it was Miller who made Matt Catholic (correct me if I'm wrong) and Smith  emphasized that aspect in his arc, but for the most part, it doesn't seem to be a big deal in the large majority of DD issues.
| jumonji wrote: |
As far as his powers are concerned, I think the whole idea behind the character was simply to take the "justice is blind" premise and then combine that with the popular myth that a person's remaining senses are enhanced when losing one sense. Add some radioactivity to that (the medium of choice in the 60's...) and voilá! At the very least, I don't see any kind of religious significance here. |
Very nicely and succintly (for you  ) put.
You refer to the other senses being enhanced as a myth. I've always thought there was some truth to one's other senses 'picking up some slack' for the missing sense, even if it is just that there is less sensory overload and one is able to focus more on the remaining senses.
| jmp85 wrote: | | Also, i know this is stretching it a bit, but isnt it ironic that Matt is carrying out the will of his 'father' who emphasizes peace and he is a blind man given the ability to see again. |
Overlooking that Matt doesn't have the ability to see, what is the significance of the blind reference you are making? Is it the biblical passage about "making the blind to see"? I'm very poor, when it comes to the bible, due to my negative attitude towards organized religion, but is this what you are trying to draw a parallel to?
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Religion 2 |
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| Neilan wrote: |
Very nicely and succintly (for you ) put. |
Thanks Neilan! 
| Neilan wrote: | | You refer to the other senses being enhanced as a myth. I've always thought there was some truth to one's other senses 'picking up some slack' for the missing sense, even if it is just that there is less sensory overload and one is able to focus more on the remaining senses. |
Well, it is a myth to the extent that the other senses don't physically change to any significant extent. The only effects reported in the literature, that I could think of (I wrote a paper about this a million years ago for my neurobiology class in college), are that good Braille readers have a slightly enhanced sense of touch and that (signing, though not "oral") deaf people have slightly better peripheral vision. The rest of the slack comes from a better use of your existing resources, I suppose. Like blind people being better at determining the source of a sound, through practice (which has also been reported). Basically, I think it's more a case of being better able to pay attention to your other senses because you have to...
As for Daredevil's senses, I'm going for Stan Lee's science over divine intervention. And, like a couple of you have pointed out, the guy is still blind so the biblical comparison isn't really there.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| He's referring to the evangelical episode of Jesus restoring sight to the blind man of Siloam. |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | He's referring to the evangelical episode of Jesus restoring sight to the blind man of Siloam. |
Thanks.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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It is one of the most touching episodes in the Gospels.
But I doubt it was ever considered by the creators of DD, or even by the subsequent writers. |
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DD1987
Flying Blind
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Religion 2 |
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| jumonji wrote: | First of all, thanks for inspiring one of the most, well, inspired discussions I've ever seen on this board (and I think most people agree, regardless of what their specific stance on the issue is)!
| jmp85 wrote: | | Assuming God and religious references are present throughout the comic, do you think Daredevil's theme of tragedy is maybe intentionally or unintentionally being supported by the notion of man's imperfection? |
My own feeling is that God and religious references are not generally present in Daredevil, so I can't make the assumption you're pointing to here. The idea of "imperfection" is clear though, I suppose, and not just in Daredevil but in many of the flawed heros Marvel put out at the time. But sure, DD is definitely a flawed hero in more or less obvious ways - physically, morally, psychologically...
| jmp85 wrote: | | Also, i know this is stretching it a bit, but isnt it ironic that Matt is carrying out the will of his 'father' who emphasizes peace and he is a blind man given the ability to see again. |
Well, he's not techically carrying out the will of his father, so I'd have to disagree. He's honoring his father, I suppose, but his methods are not something his father would condone.
As far as his powers are concerned, I think the whole idea behind the character was simply to take the "justice is blind" premise and then combine that with the popular myth that a person's remaining senses are enhanced when losing one sense. Add some radioactivity to that (the medium of choice in the 60's...) and voilá! At the very least, I don't see any kind of religious significance here.
You mentioned "tragedy" further up, and that's a more obvious theme for me. I think it's significant that he is what he is, partly as a result of losing something. He gained his powers at the cost of his sight (which he hasn't in any complete sense regained), and it was the loss of his father that prompted him to put on the costume. Even the deliberate choices he makes often come at great cost to himself and those around him. Most of what he has has come at great sacrifice and that's much more interesting, to me at least, than the relatively smooth ride experienced by some other heros.
I'm sure one could read all kinds of biblical themes into this book and the character, but I've never seen it that way myself. I'm interested to hear what others have to say though. |
Read the Bendis run. |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Religion 2 |
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| DD1987 wrote: | | Read the Bendis run. |
I have - more than once. Did we ever see Matt in a church (except for his wedding, which was initially said to have taken place in his office)? Nope. Did he ever mention anything the least religious aside from general references to God? That's another no.
My whole point is that most Americans are more or less religious, and that Matt Murdock comes across as relatively secular by comparison. The "devout Catholic" thing has very little connection to the actual comic, including the Bendis run.
And, welcome to the board, by the way.
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