Daredevil Message Board

Darkdevil

A question to be asked and pondered from a slightly new member.

First, the facts:
I just ordered the HC that collects the Guardian Devil and Parts of a Hole stories, neither of which I have ever read.

Awhile back, I read an issue of Wizard Magazine that had a round-robin table discussion with Smith, Quesada, and Palmotti about GD (I think it was due to the story's anniversary) Interesting behind-the-scenes about the story and my curiosity was raised.

Now, I know my reading of GD will ultimately form my o-pin-yun of this classic but I was wondering of everyone else's opinons of the story here.

What made it great? The story? The art?
Or was it just Smith's name attached to the story? How 'acclaimed' should he be as a DD writer?

(Don't worry about spoilers. I know about Karen Page's death.)

Yes, this story re-launched the current title but is that the only reason this story should be remembered?

Thoughts?

Guardian-Devil · Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:33 am Post subject:

Look... I loved GD story!! In fact is one of my favorites!! It has some flaws but it is a good story!!!! Don't really know if Smiths name on it helped but as a story it's good!!! I know some of you guys hate this story but in my opinion is a good story!!! Wink

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Darkdevil · Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject:

Dave Wallace · Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject:

I'm not a huge fan of Guardian Devil. It has some enjoyable moments, and the art is great, but ultimately I don't think that the story hangs together particularly well - and the tone of the book feels quite different to the noir-ish grittiness that I've been enjoying so much over the last few years, from Bendis to Brubaker to Diggle.

In the end, I think it'll be remembered more for its effect on later DD stories (especially the death of Karen Page, which Bendis revisited very effectively) than as a particularly good story in its own right.

Kirika · Flying Blind Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 57

The first issue of GD was the first comic issue I ever bought so I guess that arc has a special place in my heart. I don't think it was the best DD story ever written, but it certainly wasn't the worst. As for Smith as a comic writer....meh. Quiver was the better story in my opinion. I think he handled Ollie better than he did Matt. I haven't had any real desire to pick up the Batman stuff he did.

globalhonored · Flying Blind Joined: 27 Feb 2009 Posts: 47

I enjoyed Guardian Devil and am glad it came around to bring DD and really Marvel as a whole back in the spotlight with their MK line. I enjoy it even more knowing that and that it would give Bendis and Maleev and Mack and eventually Brubaker and Lark their chance to shine on the title.

It's a decent enough read. I would not rank it among the best of DD, but it isnt one of the worst either. Probably Kevin Smith's best work. How acclaimed should he be, or his name be associated with the character? I guess about as much as it is. His impact can't compare to that of Miller, Bendis, Bru, Nocenti, Colan, Mazzuchelli, Romita, Maleev, Lark...but of course that is a Hall of Fame cast in comics....so nothing against Silent Bob. The Quesada art some will love and some will hate, but I thought it fit the tone of the story quite well. Enjoy it and let us know how it went.

james castle · Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject:

I'm one of the people who hate GD to high heaven. On a macro-level it's garbage. The whole thing barely makes any sense and is riddled with plot holes and then is capped off with one of the worst endings I can think of (which, amazingly must have been the best ending Smith could think of). On a micro-level Smith's writing is awful. Characters are wildly inconsistant from minute to minute and all the geeky name dropping is over powering. There's some Dazzler reference that just comes from nowhere and you can tell Smith just wanted to prove he knew old school comics. Or something. Karen's death (and potential illness) is just ridiculous. She might as well have been hit by a bus off panel. It's an "important" death for an important deaths sake.

More generally, I think the "revitalization" of DD has been retconned (it real life!) since it came out. Smith and Quesada never miss a chance to praise themselves for saving Marvel through DD but I'm pretty sure at the time it was just a case of putting a big name writer on DD for a bit. Bendis brought DD back to greatness and I think he would have and could have done that relaunch or no relaunch.

I know a lot of people like GD but no one ever seems to explain why. Sure, it's been reprinted about a million times, each time in a fancier and more important looking form but if you actually read the thing it's pretty clear it's all style and no substance.

I think I've said it before on this board but as far as I can tell Smith is a hack. His personality became more important than his talent or his work ages ago. The man puts out DVDs of himself talking and "roasting" nerds. Wow. He's basically the Britney Spears of the geek/nerd world. More celebrity than talent.
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

Guardian-Devil · Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject:

Kirika · Flying Blind Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 57

Guardian-Devil · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:17 am Post subject:

PlanBFromOuterSpace · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject:

I think even Smith himself said in interviews that he didn't think it was particularly groundbreaking, but that it was a decent story at a time when people had stopped caring about Daredevil, so anything above average at that point was probably looked at as being better than it actually was.

Smith's name on the comic was definitely a big deal at the time, as he was sort of on the rise still, but since then, as far as his day job goes, he's only really shown us that he's capable of making pretty much the same movie over and over and over. More Star Wars jokes? Really? Oh, now some Lord of the Rings to show us you're only 5 years behind the times? Aside from not evolving much creatively, his box office potential appears to have a ceiling, and while he can get good names to work with, his movies all perform about the same. The Kevin Smith of now isn't in that much better of a place than the Kevin Smith of 1998, so while Daredevil was met with much fanfare, no one really seems to care as much that he's had a couple of Batman mini series out lately, which people would have been falling over each other to get to 10 years ago.

That said, Kevin Smith got ME to pick up Daredevil (I still hadn't grown COMPLETELY tired of Clerks or Mallrats yet, and I dug Chasing Amy), but I've since picked up a lot of the older stuff and also continued to follow it regularly, so I've become a big fan of the character. If the book was really in as bad of shape as people say it was before the relaunch, we may not have had the Bendis and Brubaker stuff that followed, so while the Smith stuff seems wildly out of place in comparison to what the title would become, I suppose maybe we should at least be thankful for him for bringing new interest to the character and keeping the book afloat until mare capable writers came along.

Ryu Murdock · Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject:

"Guardian Devil" is an awesome storyline. It is no "The King of Hell's Kitchen" (my favorite DD storyline so far), but it is nonetheless a very good read. The only flaw I can think of with "Guardian Devil" is that it tends to be too wordy at times.

But to answer the actual question. I would say it's Smith. Before DD, he was selling out issues of Clerks. But to say that Quesada/Palmiotti and the relaunch itself did not help is just a crime. It was an orgy of factors, but yes, Smith was the biggest factor.
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"I'm only a DEVIL to those who are demonic."

edmundlaukm · Flying Blind Joined: 08 Feb 2010 Posts: 9

First of all, I love Smith's earlier films (esp. Mallrats and Clerks).

Truth is, in the late 1990s/early 2000s, Kevin Smith was the king of geeky-indie films. Quesada and Palmiotti literally worshipped the floor that he walked on and managed to coerce him into helping them launch the Marvel Knights imprint (along with Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon on Punisher - fresh off their "Preacher" romp). It was Marvel trying its utmost best to be "hip" and appeal to the (apparently) more sophisticated youths who like Miramax films and Vertigo comics. That's not surprising considering how the company suffered under Bob Harras! Result: DD was a hit and Quesada went on to become EIC.

Smith's DD (love it or hate it) was a pivotal moment in comics history. In fact, the debate is still out whether it was Smith's DD#1 or Bendis' Ultimate Spidey #1 that launched Nu-Marvel. If you were around 10 years ago, Guardian Devil was the "must-read" book. That was why it was released in multiple printings, then in oversized "magazine" format, a super-expensive Graffiti hardcover (back when hardcovers were virtually unheard of outside the Marvel Masterworks and DC Archives), then the sold-out TPB (which I snapped up the first chance I got) and later two more hardcover editions (packaged with the Quesada-Mack arc), the recent 10th anniversary hardcover and now the new TPB!

As for whether the stories were any good - well, as they say, hindsight is 20-20. Compared to the crap that preceded it, it certainly is a return to form (much like Ennis-Dillon's Punisher: Welcome Back Frank). But it's nothing compared to what came after. In fact, I'd vote for the Mack issues featuring Echo as way superior stuff. Then of course, Bendis and Brubaker happened - making Smith's stuff look positively juvenile by comparison. To stay on with the Punisher-comparison, Ennis outdid himself with his MAX series as well - making his return to the "Welcome Back Frank" world in th recent "Resurrection of Ma Gnucci" feel like a nostalgic trip but nothing very groundbreaking.

These days, I reread "Guardian Devil" for its simple fun and obvious fanboyish appeal. Sometimes, I revisit it for JoeQ's art. He did give us some amazing visuals - e.g. the upside down cruciform DD, DD wrapping himself around a cross on top of the building, etc. The whole thing is an antidote (at times) to the realism of Bendis/Maleev or Bru/Lark - much like the earlier Lee/Wood/Colan books presented a swashbuckling adventurer when contrasted against Miller's noir-influenced take.

Also, Kevin Smith "out-Catholic" Frank Miller! So that at least count for something! One of the elements missing throughout both Bendis' and Bru's runs was the religious element in Matt's life.

~ Edmund

james castle · Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:08 am Post subject:

I think you'll find that "the religious element in Matt's life" is not only missing from the Bendis/Bru stuff but from virtually all other DD comics that don't have Smith's name on them. Even Miller doesn't make Matt out to be particularly religious. Smith did because he didn't really get the character.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

DarkKnightJared · Flying Blind Joined: 19 Mar 2010 Posts: 6

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