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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: Should dead characters be brought back? |
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| Should dead characters, like Karen Page, be brought back? |
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Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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No.
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Alice
Those who throw dirt merely lose ground. |
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Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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No.
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Alice
Those who throw dirt merely lose ground. |
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Guardian-Devil
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Greece
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:09 am Post subject: |
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Characters like Karen definitely NO!!! BUT i think Bullseye should come back in a DD comic event, not any time soon though...
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theunrealstudios
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Posts: 137
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| i want to be perfectly, crystal clear: i will stop reading Daredevil if Karen Page comes back from the dead. The same applies to Spiderman's Gwen Stacy. Some people are just more powerful emotionally to a character when they're dead. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| theunrealstudios wrote: | | i want to be perfectly, crystal clear: i will stop reading Daredevil if Karen Page comes back from the dead. The same applies to Spiderman's Gwen Stacy. Some people are just more powerful emotionally to a character when they're dead. |
Hear hear! Seriously -- Hear hear! |
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Knatty Dreadnok
Flying Blind
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 58
Location: Interstate Of Mind
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:05 am Post subject: |
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Hell no!
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the gael
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Karen is a big problem. I don't think she's in the same case as gwen stacy (more powerful emotionally dead that alive) To be honest, that being said, I think she's in the same case that Glorianna O'Breen, a character whose death was gratuitous and make no sense.
On the other hand, if she and Glori are brought back from the dead, I think that it wouldn't make sense (the eternal problem of reducing the impact of death in the marvel universe)
I'm really torn on the subject, really. |
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omotenium
Flying Blind
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I think Shadowland could've been an incredible opportunity. They should have made him a villain longer and had him guest star in Spider-Man or something. Then he could have gone even more insane and had the Hand resurrect Karen and it wouldn't necessarily have to be bad. I kind of feel like Karen would fit the tone Waid is going for, but I can't think of how he'd bring her back nor would I want her to come back now. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Eventually Bullseye will have to come back, and I'll be fine with that. |
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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, the Comic Revolving Door of Death. It cheapens, weakens, and undermines what should be a powerful dramatic tool for writers.
Can you imagine the outcry or blase opinion if Gwen Stacy was killed in today's comics? Everyone would be rolling their eyes and betting on how long before she returns.
If a writer decides to kill a character, whether a main one or a supporting one, it should be in service to the story, not in service to the company's bottom line. It should remain permanent. Yes, we deal with a fictional universe where a blind man can fight like Bruce Lee and cosmic beings eat planets for lunch, so perhaps the possibility of being brought back to life should exist, but not for everyone.
So no, Karen Page should never be brought back. |
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the gael
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Darkdevil wrote: | Ah, the Comic Revolving Door of Death. It cheapens, weakens, and undermines what should be a powerful dramatic tool for writers.
Can you imagine the outcry or blase opinion if Gwen Stacy was killed in today's comics? Everyone would be rolling their eyes and betting on how long before she returns.
If a writer decides to kill a character, whether a main one or a supporting one, it should be in service to the story, not in service to the company's bottom line. It should remain permanent. Yes, we deal with a fictional universe where a blind man can fight like Bruce Lee and cosmic beings eat planets for lunch, so perhaps the possibility of being brought back to life should exist, but not for everyone.
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You summurize well what is the problem with the comics now, and expecially with Marvel (but DC has also the same problem, even if it isn't as present as in Marvel) : everyone die and returns six month or one year later maximum.
There was a time (when Quesada was named editor in chief), when a dead character had to stay dead. It didn't work well for one reason : There is not enough reflexion as to "what character kill ?" and "what are the implication of their death on the long term". Too many important character had been killed previously (Colossus, Psyloke, etc...) and Marvel wasn't in a very good position.
There is too many comic where death is simply given as shock value. For the beautiful death of Elektra in the Elektra saga and the necessary death of Heather in the great "Fog" issue, how many terrible death happened, just in the DD comic book ?
Glorianna's one was shamefull, and, whatever Kevin Smith could say, the Karen one was gratuitous (should I say also ridiculous) and proved his short vision.
I agree with you, the death of people in comic should be more carefully thought and be permanent or, at least, stay for 20 or 30 years minimum because death in the comics are now a joke.
That being said, I think that the corollary to that is that Marvel shouldn't allow the writer to kill of character for no reason. Karen, like glory, should never have been killed or, at least, not like that at for such an absence of purpose.
I'm sorry, but kevin Smith and "Allan Smythee" (hello M Chichester, even if the editors are as much to blame as him, if they butchered his original story) don't need anyone to "cheapens, weakens, and undermines " their stories (sorry, it's hard and not nice for them, but true) |
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theunrealstudios
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Posts: 137
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:45 am Post subject: |
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I'm gonna jump in here because we seem to overlook (specifically Karen) how perfect of a setup death can provide (and with her it most certainly did).
I'll be frank, i'm not a huge fan of Smith but like #191 i'll come back to read #6 as it's one of my favorite issues in DD for the flash backs and rage.
That being said what's being overlooked with Karen is all the work of Mack, Bendis, Brubaker etc would not have had as much weight without that death. Those stories in their tone were a product of how much worse his life was getting and the death had an immense psychological effect to make poor decisions. The mistakes wouldn't have been justified. Did it progress the plot after some forgettable stories after fall from grace? hell yes: Nervous breakdown, outted, assassination attempts, FBI watching his life, marriage, kingpin of hells kitchen, potential divorce, prison, best friend murder conspiracy, wife going insane, cheating on wife, actual divorce and finally becoming the leader of a cult of freakin' Ninjas. 10+ years of unrivaled stories having one of the best unspoiled runs in comic book history and i would like to think the foundation was that single death (granted any writer or team could have done that in any way).
i think with comic book characters if the main character is affected deeply of the loss and it's evident in a emotional change that works for the character then the death has significance and should be appreciated (note: batman stories became darker and cooler in the 80's when Robin died and thus the death made the character appeal more to fans as it became less campy).
Point is sometimes ALOT of great stories can come from someone dying as it can change the books attitude. Whether you agree or disagree is personally subjective, objectively death can be necessary for the greater picture to progress a book that's had decades of rinse and repeat (although i don't credit big picture, long term thinking on DD's writer or editor; just speaking in general). Say what you will about poor writing or an unnecessary kill but i enjoyed those years of reading because of it and there is a place for death in comics (we just want them to stay dead and be held of more value in memory). |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| theunrealstudios wrote: | | That being said what's being overlooked with Karen is all the work of Mack, Bendis, Brubaker etc would not have had as much weight without that death. Those stories in their tone were a product of how much worse his life was getting and the death had an immense psychological effect to make poor decisions. The mistakes wouldn't have been justified. Did it progress the plot after some forgettable stories after fall from grace? hell yes: Nervous breakdown, outted, assassination attempts, FBI watching his life, marriage, kingpin of hells kitchen, potential divorce, prison, best friend murder conspiracy, wife going insane, cheating on wife, actual divorce and finally becoming the leader of a cult of freakin' Ninjas. 10+ years of unrivaled stories having one of the best unspoiled runs in comic book history and i would like to think the foundation was that single death (granted any writer or team could have done that in any way). |
Of course you're right. Death, like any event, can be a useful device springboarding into wonderful possibilities. But in the case of Karen's death, however, I felt like the writers used her as a crutch. Matt had previously been established as one of the more introspective characters in the Marvel Universe, however, I don't feel he had effectively dealt with Karen's death, and for the five years Bendis had Daredevil performing one act after another that were wildly out of character, with the excuse that he was in grief. Miller did this before after Elektra died, but he didn't drag it out for five years. With Bendis having him unmask at Josie's and get married to Milla, it got pathetic. Daredevil became a character I wanted to slap across the face and yell at to wake up.
Brubaker seemed to share my sentiment as indicated by the one shot narrated by Milla. As for the decision to take over The Hand, I don't know if we can attribute that to Karen's death, or just a misbegotten editorial decision.
I do agree with you that Karen is an important figure now that she's dead. But can we just say now that he's done with his grief?
As for dead characters coming back, I think it's easier for villains. I don't hear anyone complaining that Norman Osborn is alive. I think Bullseye will eventually have to come back.
As for heroes, it's trickier, because I think the reader goes through a mourning period, and feels betrayed if it turns out they were lied to. However, Bucky was assumed dead for decades, and because of that length of time and so many readers coming of age with the idea of a dead Bucky, Ed Brubaker was able to blow peoples minds by creating this Winter Soldier identity for him in the cold war era. And I for one loved it. But I think that amount of time has to pass to allow for that to happen. |
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the gael
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| theunrealstudios wrote: |
That being said what's being overlooked with Karen is all the work of Mack, Bendis, Brubaker etc would not have had as much weight without that death. Those stories in their tone were a product of how much worse his life was getting and the death had an immense psychological effect to make poor decisions. The mistakes wouldn't have been justified. Did it progress the plot after some forgettable stories after fall from grace? hell yes: Nervous breakdown, outted, assassination attempts, FBI watching his life, marriage, kingpin of hells kitchen, potential divorce, prison, best friend murder conspiracy, wife going insane, cheating on wife, actual divorce and finally becoming the leader of a cult of freakin' Ninjas. 10+ years of unrivaled stories having one of the best unspoiled runs in comic book history and i would like to think the foundation was that single death (granted any writer or team could have done that in any way).
i think with comic book characters if the main character is affected deeply of the loss and it's evident in a emotional change that works for the character then the death has significance and should be appreciated (note: batman stories became darker and cooler in the 80's when Robin died and thus the death made the character appeal more to fans as it became less campy).
Point is sometimes ALOT of great stories can come from someone dying as it can change the books attitude. Whether you agree or disagree is personally subjective, objectively death can be necessary for the greater picture to progress a book that's had decades of rinse and repeat (although i don't credit big picture, long term thinking on DD's writer or editor; just speaking in general). Say what you will about poor writing or an unnecessary kill but i enjoyed those years of reading because of it and there is a place for death in comics (we just want them to stay dead and be held of more value in memory). |
That's interesting.To be honest, I disagree with you on one thing. It's not Karen death that brought us the great Bendis / Brubaker run, but the outing. The outing is what turned Matt life into a living hell. Once your secret identity is blown up, every villian you have faced may attack you. Once Daredevil has a known adress, every supervillian may be at the door at any times. someone may target you and you will never know who shot you in the head.
It will turn you quickly into a paranoid guy and it will be forever, because tabloids will always diffuse the information. That being said, the loss of Karen has rushed Matt's downfall. She was a long lasting love. And, once you have nobody to calm you in this situation, things worsen.
That's the reason of the mariage debacle. Matt tried to compensate for the lack of his sentimental life and poor Milla paid the bill.
And that lead us to another question. What make her death so "great", so "defining". It won't be nice for Smith fans, but what has her death achieve that a break up, for exemple, which would have had her character absent from the book, couldn't have achieved ?
People quoted the death of Gwen Stacy has an exemple, and they were right. Same could be said for Elektra or Heather in DD.
Gwen Stacy was a character who lost a lot of interest when she become Peter's girlfriend and lost the "spicy" and "haughty" side she had in her first appearance.
Her character had become the classical "damsel in distress" who hated spiderman for the death of her father.
Her death is great because, not only it changed the tone of the comic world (which became more serious) and because Peter suffered a great loss, but also because the loss was due to Peter actions, he "killed" (well, achieved) her by stopping her fall (which would have been fatal, to be honest). For the only time, he failed at saving someone. And, worst, she was her one true love.
Same could be said with Elektra. Because Matt prevented Bullseye from being killed by the subway, because he was a true hero, Bullseye, who was a true villian, murdred Elektra. It has a great impact when the actions of a superhero lead to the death of a loved one.
And that lead to another observation : these death were great because they were the first of their kind. It was never done before, and weren't supposed to be followed by others. It was supposed to be the one and only failure that haunted the hero for the rest of their lives and make them stronger and more determined to never let it happen again.
In the case of Karen. If she left Matt, like in the beginning of volume 2, but never returned, what would have happened ? Matt is in the first page of the guardian devil comic. And the whole guardian devil crap has never happened. What could have been different from the rest of volume 2 ?
Nothing. Matt would have still suffered from her loss (and don't tell me that a break up can't be as hard to live as a death). What Karen death has added to volume 2 that a simple break up couldn't have done ?
You can't say that from the Gwen Stacy death, which had a great impact on Peter that a leaving Gwen wouldn't have had.
Worst, Matt has been depicted by Miller, Nocenti and Chichester as one of the most learning superheroes. From the death of Elektra, Matt learned how dangerous Bullseye can be. Yet, and after having defeated him a number of time, despite the fact that Matt should be more determined than ever to prevent him from killing another innocent people, which should have make him "stronger" (something Bendis and Brubaker portrayed well), he let Bullseye operate in the church with sister Maggie and the baby (instead of attracting him in a place without anybody) and Karen got killed in the result. Sorry, but having Elektra killed by Bullseye make him a monster, having both Elektra and Karen killed by him make DD a dumbass. (Yes Kevin, I know that you said it was an "homage") |
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