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The Overlord Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 1095
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: Elektra: Hero or Villain? |
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Is Elektra a hero or a villain? Most people have called her an anti hero, but I wonder if some of her actions cross a moral line. Hasn't Elektra killed innocent people for money? Elektra was willing to kill Foggy at one point and only choose not because Foggy was a friend of Matt's. Killing innocent people for money is pretty villainous, its not really a grey area. She does kill innocent for money, what makes her different then all the other assassin villains out there? Most of them are just considered villains. |
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Dimetre Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 1366 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:57 am Post subject: |
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When she first showed up, I'm guessing Marvel marketed her as a villain, but I don't think it's that simple, and I don't think it has to be.
To me, Elektra is at her best when presented as a problem for Matt to solve. As Ben Urich put it in #179, Matt wants to stop her and caress her at the same time. She is his first love, and he's convinced that somewhere inside of this assassin is the woman with whom he fell in love. She's everything he's against, but if he can break past that, he could save her.
Elektra without Daredevil is intermittently interesting. I thought Zeb Wells did a good job with the Dark Reign: Elektra miniseries. When she's without Daredevil she's definitely an anti-hero, in the same way the Punisher is. You're supposed to empathize with her, although her deeds often make that difficult. That's probably why two attempts at an ongoing series have failed. Nobody has topped what Frank Miller did with the character so long ago. |
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The Overlord Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 1095
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Dimetre wrote: | When she first showed up, I'm guessing Marvel marketed her as a villain, but I don't think it's that simple, and I don't think it has to be.
To me, Elektra is at her best when presented as a problem for Matt to solve. As Ben Urich put it in #179, Matt wants to stop her and caress her at the same time. She is his first love, and he's convinced that somewhere inside of this assassin is the woman with whom he fell in love. She's everything he's against, but if he can break past that, he could save her.
Elektra without Daredevil is intermittently interesting. I thought Zeb Wells did a good job with the Dark Reign: Elektra miniseries. When she's without Daredevil she's definitely an anti-hero, in the same way the Punisher is. You're supposed to empathize with her, although her deeds often make that difficult. That's probably why two attempts at an ongoing series have failed. Nobody has topped what Frank Miller did with the character so long ago. |
The thing is Punisher has code where he doesn't kill innocent, but Elektra didn't seem to mind killing Ben Urich's informant or trying to kill Ben himself. Heck the only reason Elektra spared Foggy was because he was Matt's friend.
The thing is killing innocent people for money is not morally ambiguous, its just flat out wrong. If Elektra just killed really bad people for money, like that time she killed that old Nazi, she would come off as more sympathetic. Even with Catwoman, Batman doesn't just cut her slack because she is a pretty face, Catwoman is just a thief, she rarely kills and when she does kill its only hardcore psychopaths like Black Mask.
I think it might have been mistake to bring her back in the first place, when she died her death was her redemption. She last act was one of kindness before being killed by Bullseye and she was killed by Bullseye because she was an assassin, her death was a product of her own violent lifestyle. Brining her back negates all that. She needs new way of being redeemed after coming back. Perhaps having her slowly move away from being an assassin and be more of a heroic character over time. She is still fighting her habits, but learning to do things in a less lethal way.
I don't see why Elektra seems get cut more slack then say the Punisher by other heroes, Punisher seems to have more of a code then Elektra. Typhoid Mary doesn't seem to get the same amount of slack that Elektra has and at least she has insanity as an excuse. Why shouldn't every hero try to put her in jail right away? I know Matt has bias towards her, but really besides being Matt's first love, what makes her any different then any other assassin running around the Marvel universe? Why is she morally superior to any other assassin out there? |
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Francesco Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 1307
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Villain. She's an assassin, would kill for the right price, and I don't think she would step in to do typical heroic stuff like saving people in danger or stop a supervillain from robbing a bank. Definitely not a hero. |
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Ryu Murdock Playing to the Camera
Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 175 Location: Cainta Rizal, Philippines
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Elektra has not killed an innocent since her "evil" was extracted out of her. Or has she?
She is not a hero, but she is not a villain IMO either. _________________ "I'm only a DEVIL to those who are demonic." |
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The Overlord Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 1095
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Ryu Murdock wrote: | Elektra has not killed an innocent since her "evil" was extracted out of her. Or has she?
She is not a hero, but she is not a villain IMO either. |
So getting the evil sucked out of you a legal defense now?
Shouldn't she still go to jail for killing Ben Urich's contact? Also how do you get the evil sucked out of you, evil is a choice, people choose to do evil acts and they choose to do good acts. |
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Clayton Blind Love Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 772 Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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The Overlord wrote: | Ryu Murdock wrote: | Elektra has not killed an innocent since her "evil" was extracted out of her. Or has she?
She is not a hero, but she is not a villain IMO either. |
So getting the evil sucked out of you a legal defense now?
Shouldn't she still go to jail for killing Ben Urich's contact? Also how do you get the evil sucked out of you, evil is a choice, people choose to do evil acts and they choose to do good acts. |
Suck the evil out!
You're right about evil being a choice. I read Shadowland once and I think that was most evil act of comic book reading that I have ever committed in quite some time. Sorry, I had to say it.
As for Elektra, I think Blake said it best;
Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry? _________________ Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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The Overlord Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 1095
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Clayton Blind Love wrote: | The Overlord wrote: | Ryu Murdock wrote: | Elektra has not killed an innocent since her "evil" was extracted out of her. Or has she?
She is not a hero, but she is not a villain IMO either. |
So getting the evil sucked out of you a legal defense now?
Shouldn't she still go to jail for killing Ben Urich's contact? Also how do you get the evil sucked out of you, evil is a choice, people choose to do evil acts and they choose to do good acts. |
Suck the evil out!
You're right about evil being a choice. I read Shadowland once and I think that was most evil act of comic book reading that I have ever committed in quite some time. Sorry, I had to say it.
As for Elektra, I think Blake said it best;
Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry? |
It does seem like a double standard that Elektra gets treated better by the authorities and many of the super heroes, then a lot of other characters.
Punisher has killed more people then Elektra, but frankly his motives are more sympathetic then Elektra's, where her motive is simple greed. Heck someone like Stilt-Man is more sympathetic then Elektra, he is just some idiot who robs banks, I think don't think he has ever killed anyone and Elektra who has killed innocent people, why shouldn't she be held responsible for actions. DD seems a lot a harsher on Stilt-Man then he does on Elektra, despite the fact that her crimes are worse then his.
Or look at Typhoid Mary, she is insane, not criminally responsible for her actions and yet she is treated more harshly then Elektra, who is sane. That doesn't seem very fair. |
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Ryu Murdock Playing to the Camera
Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 175 Location: Cainta Rizal, Philippines
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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I was pertaining to the "Fall From Grace" arc. The dark soul of Elektra became part of her again after killing it, but like I said, I don't remember her killing innocents after that story line. Which is sorta ironic.
If having darkness in her soul will not work for Elektra's defense, Typhoid Mary's insanity shouldn't either.
Why is Matt Murdock still a hero after telling his ninjas to take his superhero friends "dead or alive". That may not be "kill them all", but he was commanding friggin' Hand ninjas. So he might as well worded it that way. And Bullseye is far from innocent but he still died in the arms of Matt Murdock. It's still murder. Why is Matt not locked up for that?
Bottomline is, Elektra is not really a villain. And say she is, all it takes is a writer to pen a redemption story and that is it. But really, it's her affinity to other heroes and vice versa that gives people the notion she ain't a villain. _________________ "I'm only a DEVIL to those who are demonic." |
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Darkdevil Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009 Posts: 331 Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:06 am Post subject: |
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She is redemption, or at least I think should be.
Matt wants to save her, to redeem her for the terrible acts she has committed, to bring back the woman that was his first love.
Yes, she is an assassin which means she accepts contracts for payment. But I would also believe that means she has some form of code in accepting such contracts. I don't recall any specific case where she killed an actual innocent as a job. If someone is willing to pay for a termination, then to that employer, the target is not innocent. It's all about perception and whether that perception aligns with what Elektra personally believes.
For if she is just wantonly kills innocents, then she's no better than a sociopath....no better than Bullseye and that I cannot believe. |
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AP Flying Blind
Joined: 08 Jul 2010 Posts: 55
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Dimetre wrote: | When she first showed up, I'm guessing Marvel marketed her as a villain, but I don't think it's that simple, and I don't think it has to be.
To me, Elektra is at her best when presented as a problem for Matt to solve. As Ben Urich put it in #179, Matt wants to stop her and caress her at the same time. She is his first love, and he's convinced that somewhere inside of this assassin is the woman with whom he fell in love. She's everything he's against, but if he can break past that, he could save her. |
This is pretty much how I see it. I really like your first sentence, that really answers the question for me.
The Overlord wrote: | ...I think it might have been mistake to bring her back in the first place, when she died her death was her redemption. She last act was one of kindness before being killed by Bullseye and she was killed by Bullseye because she was an assassin, her death was a product of her own violent lifestyle. Brining her back negates all that... |
I couldn't agree more. They should never have brought her back. They took a well crafted character arc and sullied it for noteriety. A shame. |
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