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Marvel's Daredevil S2E13 Discussion
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Kuljit Mithra
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:31 pm    Post subject: Marvel's Daredevil S2E13 Discussion Reply with quote

Please use this thread to discuss this episode and any relevant plot points that occurred prior to this one.
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Marcus Plato
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Joined: 15 Sep 2011
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, the coolest elements of the season are saved for the last episode (the new Billy-club and Frank's Skull). Also quite disappointed about the almost total absence of parkour, and I guess they couldn't wait for Bullseye to kill Elektra...
All my wife could say during the whole season was "Why is Matt being such a dick?" Couldn't argue with that.
Still enjoyed it for the most part. Costume looks waaay better, anyway.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that was an ending. Definitely ended better than last season. But my first thought is, can we get season 3 now? It isn't just Elektra and the Hand, which can theoretically be in Defenders. Come on, you leave with that Matt and Karen moment? It was great and it was a long time coming. And leading up to it, Karen was strong and heroic and everything you'd want. The fight between Matt and Nobu was great (and Frank showing up was fitting as well). Really, this was just the perfect ending to a great season. I felt the first season had a more singular story, but this season was just more fun overall. Five Stars.
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Daredevil24
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Joined: 06 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loved the season but I wished that Bullseye would have killed her, but it seems like they're telling their own story so maybe Karen won't be killed.She's one of my favorite characters.Season 2 did her great justice.Bring on Luke Cage!!!
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GratefulFred
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what bad writing is all about.

Elektra dying at the hands of Nabu instead of Bullseye is sacreligious to the most classic 181, one of the great moments in DDs illustrious history.

Making Frank's commanding officer the bad guy was rather stupid. Imagine if no one solved that mystery and at the end you hear the Kingpin talking to someone not shown and they decide the name the "Locksmith" or whatever he was called wasn't good enough and he should pick a new name as the guy threw cards at some target and though we didn't see him we heard the name "Bullseye". That would've left me satisfied.

Matt's revealing his identity to Karen at the end made me think this was the movie "The Shadow" all about Margo Lane. Did she faint like in the comics? Naw...no hugs...no reaction. Unnecessary...with no emotional impact.

We don't deserve a third season thanks to people who don't know how to tell a great cohesive story and took the true fans for granted to put on eye candy. As a lifetime DD fan, I feel cheated.
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Sciurid
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disorganized thoughts on the finale and the season in general to follow.

1. I really like how they worked in the various reasons that have been presented for Frank turning into the Punisher. There's the grieving father, the war-scarred vet, and the "just something kinda wrong with him" aspect. From what I've read in the books, it always felt like the writers picked one of the three, and that never quite felt satisfying. Ultimately, I think they made a good case for it being all of the above, with his own personal agency tipping him over the edge.

2. Nice parallels between DD's method of working out the Punisher story and Karen's. They always know roughly the same amount of info, though Karen does it without concussing anyone, and breaks fewer laws.

3. Does Frank know who DD is? I assumed they were trying to imply it. Could be wrong.

4. Poor Foggy.

5. Matt pushes the free will theme with both Frank and Elektra. One goes one way, the other goes the other. And yet, Frank & Matt's first encounter ends with Frank shooting Matt in the head, and their final encounter has Frank providing covering fire for Matt, likely saving his life.

6. I'm ambivalent on Elektra's storyline. I'm okay with her being more or less psychopathic, though you lose the parallelism between her and Matt with the "Daddy died, time to BATMAN."

7. The Hand has never been my favorite part of Daredevil, but I thought they pulled it off pretty well, in that it didn't feel out of place despite the realistic tone they're going for.

8. This is the most Catholic show I've ever seen (maybe just a little hyperbolic). Yeah, he's an Irish Catholic in the books, and yeah, Miller told a very religious story without being too didactic about it, but it always felt like Matt was lapsed, though perhaps culturally Catholic. I've always been a little confused why people thought he was so religious, except, perhaps in comparison with other superheroes, where religion just doesn't really exist (with a few notable exceptions). As with everything else in the show, it's handled well and respectfully (though they get some of the minor details wrong).

9. Not necessarily glad to see it, but it completes part of what I thought was only hinted at in the first season, namely Matt's arrogance and hubris.

10. Really interested to see where they go from here. I suppose it depends on whether S3 or Defenders hits first (my money's on on Defenders).

Overall, strong season, good pacing throughout. I'll have to watch it again episode by episode, more like I did with the first season, to know how it compares to the first season.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought the best interpretation was that he was a lapsed Catholic, but people who are thinking otherwise get it from Guardian Devil and the Daredevil movie (which probably also got it from 2013).
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Sciurid
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
I've always thought the best interpretation was that he was a lapsed Catholic, but people who are thinking otherwise get it from Guardian Devil and the Daredevil movie (which probably also got it from 2013).


Agreed. I haven't seen the movie, nor do I have any intention to, as I'm not one of those people who enjoys bad movies, ironically or otherwise. I also don't think Kevin Smith really nailed the character in Guardian Devil. It came out right around the same time as Dogma, and the DD books pretty much felt like he was working out some personal demons.

Charles Soule mentioned here that Karen's death was the reason Matt stopped being a practicing Catholic, so I suppose there's probably a decent contingent who thinks he was prior to that.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this was actually addressed in Daredevil/Spider-Man. I can't be certain, though, even though I just read the story and there's no way in hell I'm reading that stupid story again to confirm.

I think it's possible to even read Guardian Devil in a way that makes him less of a practicing Catholic. Part of the whole point is Karen leaving before the beginning is causing him to go back to Mass as a way of finding himself. I tend to agree Kevin Smith is projecting himself a bit onto the character, though.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Sciurid
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read Guardian Devil about the same way you're describing, especially since there's some mumbling about doubting God's existence and whatnot.

There are a few instances of him being referred to as a devout/devoted Catholic post Guardian Devil, though. I just figure it goes back to religion actually existing in DD books, as opposed to most other comic books.

This is probably an unpopular stance in comic fans (of which I am very new, and didn't grow up with them), but I really don't care for Spiderman. It'll probably be awhile before I voluntarily choose to read a book that features him heavily.

Also, rereading my previous post, I use a lot of parentheticals. Sorry Smile
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Dayle88
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Joined: 25 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was a great ending. The billy club was incredible. The main characters were amazing all season. I thought Elektra was a perfect tribute to the comic and a perfect fit for the show.

Having her be the centre piece for Matt to take on the Hand gives him the extra motivation beyond saving the city. Their love and original time together led to her getting him involved with the Hand and they allowed the story to evolve and then go back to that personal connection for the ending. Great story telling as far as I'm concerned.

The final battle with Nobu was the usual excellence that the show has had all the way through with a few fist pump moments added with Punisher helping out and Stick at the end for some added attitude. I think the Punisher saw who Daredevil is but beyond his nod of respect for trying to help him in both of his identities I don't think Frank gives a crap.

Did we ever find out what the huge hole the Hand was digging was for? Or was that where the chamber that Elektra ends up in came from?

It was an incredible experience watching it. A lot of it has fallen out of my mind as I was enjoying myself and quite a lot of times being blown away so I'm definitely going to watch it all again very soon.

I have no doubts there'll be a Daredevil season three this time next year. Maybe they'll shuffle the schedule to fit in three shows next year to have Iron Fist and the Defenders. They might let the shows run however they feel is best regardless of how many come out a year. Season two of Daredevil is the best superhero TV show or film I've seen and it seems to have gotten unanimous praise so they're probably feeling pretty confident they can put a lot of stuff out there.

It's not like they are going to dilute they're own ratings by having too many shows scheduled for the week, they encourage binge watching.
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Dayle88
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been re-watching some parts and it reminded me why I like the Hand beyond the obvious cool ninja reasons.

A lot of enemies stick around and reoccur with similar themes because the comics stick around and never end. While it isn't unique to them the Hand can be beaten by the hero and the leader taken down for a nice conclusion but because they always work in sects there's always more to return. They also can build an enemy out of each smaller groups leader that can be interesting. They can directly show this happening while having it make sense.

In this case it was Nobu and getting his troops out of New York. I like the fact that Matt can win and the Hand still get what they want and it not feel similar to the Joker getting a free pass and escaping because he is popular.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soooo....we're calling him Daredevil now?

Did I miss the bit where everyone starting calling him Daredevil instead of "The Devil of Hell's Kitchen"?

I feel like at the end of episode 12 Nobo referred to Matt as "Daredevil" out of nowhere. And I was like "wait...so he's Daredevil now? Maybe it was just Nobo?". But nope, in the final episode Foggy just picks it up.

In the final scene when Matt tells Karen he's Daredevil she should have been like "wait. who's Daredevil? Is that that same person as the Devil of Hell's Kitchen? Because...?". Did I miss something?

Other notes on the series:

Punisher was amazing. Probably my favorite part of the whole series.

Elektra was also great. They really messed with her story but I think it was all good in the end. The only nit picky thing is why didn't anyone ever comment that it was really weird that her and Matt dated?

Stick continues to be amazing.

All the court related stuff was beyond terrible. Here's just a few points:

    You are supposed to lead a witness on cross.
    Nelson and Murdock could never represent Frank given that their employee was a complainant/witness.
    The DA's office controls their work how exactly? Being hated by the prosecutor usually gets you MORE work.
    Matt's questioning of Frank (which was actually more like a second opening or final submission or unrelated speech?) was insane.


Some of the writing was soooooo bad. When Matt was talking about the Hand he said "just because I can't explain what they do doesn't mean I accept them as a fairy tale". What?

All the costumes were wicked.

Enough teasing - let's have The Gladiator already.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last episode of last season introduced "Daredevil." It was used interchangeably at the beginning (or, more like, they'd say "Daredevil" and clarify "the Devil of Hell's Kitchen" to make sure everyone was on the same page). It's one of those things that stuck more as the season progressed.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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james castle
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
The last episode of last season introduced "Daredevil." It was used interchangeably at the beginning (or, more like, they'd say "Daredevil" and clarify "the Devil of Hell's Kitchen" to make sure everyone was on the same page). It's one of those things that stuck more as the season progressed.


I guess I did miss it then. Who said it first and why?
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