Daredevil Message Board

[Gloria]

You know, way back in the old times, Daredevil was considered a second-stringer among Marvel superheroes, and certainly, a second stringer to our friendly neighbour Spiderman.

But is it really so, nowadays?

In the cool light of crude earnings, one would say that Spiderman is still first over ol' DD... But, in my humble opinion, the overall level of DD stories is superior.

I used to love Spidey, yes I did. I was addicted to the reprints of the old and glorious Lee-Ditko-Romita days, and I also was thrilled by many Conway-Kane-Andru stories. But not anymore: maybe I am to old for the new webcrawling comics, maybe I don't warm to stories going over and over about clones and alien costumes or over empha-angsting Parker in similitude with the SpeedBall/Penance nonsense.

One of the lucks of being a second stringer series, is that authors are allowed to take greater liberties than they would with a best-selling franchise... And we DD readers are lucky that this will to experiment has given us hours of delight.

I'm writing this because a new Spiderman comic features an ultimate showdown against the Kingpin: bare-fisted, bare-faced, and with his secret identity bared to the general public, too (not to mention the Kingpin-related continuity flaws being bared to the True Believers)... Ok, fine, but I think this has been done before, and better (if you know what I mean).

Didn't Spiderman suffer his greatest defeat in Kraven's Last Hunt (1987)? Probably. Gripping story, and quite interesting: only that Murdock got it much better in Born Again (1986).

Didn't Matt get his secret ID exposed in public, putting his wole life and work, and that of his friends and loved ones in jeopardy? Oh well, Petey gets jealous of the hype and follows suit and gets angry and gritty when he's everyone's target, and then dresses in black to beat poor Wilson... But, Parker, you shouldn't complain, you did unmask yourself! exhibitionist! (Matt, in this sense, is much more cautious, even in his usual lack of cautiousness).

Does Matt get a close and "cordial", no-holds-barred enmity with the Kingpin, the kind of mythical feud that bards would chronicle in epic sagas? Petey thinks: "hey I clobbered the freakin' fatso before; I want my Big Epic Kingpin Saga, too"


Anyone more has the feeling that Spidey tends to imitate, a bit too much, the great sagas lived previously by other heros in general (and ol' Hornhead in particular)?
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

[the truebeliever]

I do agree with you on many points. I think that Marvel is thinking since Spider-Man is there flagship character and they want to keep it that way even if they have to rehash stories already used. In general I think that sometimes the comic book universe can get a little stale. At times it can turn into more of a cliche when you use the same heroes and the same villians for 40+ years. So, do I think that it's a bad idea that Spidey is doing something all of us have already seen a hundred times? No, I just think that's how comics work nowadays.

And yes, I'm reading this story line and I have to say it's written well. Also, Gloria, when you said that this arc is out of continuity, it's not. In every issue they have a caption/remind box stating that it is set before Daredevil issues #92 and 93 as well as the recent issue giving us some behind the scenes look on what Kingpin was doing during the negotiation in those issues that we didn't see in Daredevil. So, just wanted to clear that up.

[Gloria]

[the truebeliever]

Yeah. I just wondered what would have happened Wilson Fisk if not for Frank Miller on Daredevil.

[Francesco]

I'm not sure I'm getting you point here. Daredevil is no longer a second stringer to Spider-man because the latter has recently had a showdown with the Kingpin?

[Pete]

[Gloria]

[Francesco]

Well, my theory here is quite different.
Has Daredevil been a second stringer to SM in the past?
Yes

Is he a second stringer anymore?
Oh yeah. Only that it got worse.

And the examples only confirm this theory. In the grand view of how the thing go in the MU, no one f'n cares about Daredevil.

No one cares about his good stories of the past. No one cares of what he did in the recent past. No one cares about his continuity (see Runaways. And I'm pretty sure that if it weren't for the protests following Fisk's appearence in Runaways, in this Spider-Man arc we would've seen Wilson Fisk free and in New York as if nothing had happened)

Of Daredevil, the writers who are not involved in the title only remember that Kingpin became is nemesis, that he was in love with Elektra, that Bullseye is another nemesis and not much else. And they disregard his continuity and consider him essentially as a poor man's Spider-man.
As insulting as it may sound, this is the darn truth.

Why do you think that JMS made a scene so similar to the finale of the Hardcore storyarc?
Because he read it and he wanted to imitate it?
No. I say thee nay. He did because he has never read Hardcore, and so he couldn't see that it was already done.

Spider-man getting "darker" "grittier" and wearing the black costume an imitation of DD's recent gritty style?
No. Spider-man got gritty because he had to wear the black costume in concomitance with the thirs Spider-Man movie.

Spider-man having Kingpin as a storyarc main villain because he's taking it form DD's classic rogue gallery?
No. After Spider-man's unmasking and rejection of Iron-man's ways, the most logical thing that could happen was a villain trying to hurt him by hurting his loved one.
But, to make this scary, real, threatening enough, to show the horrible reality of it what do you do?
You have aunt May attacked by Doc Ock or any other colourful villain? No. That wouldn't be enough. You need to use villains who rule through fear.
The mobsters. And the most prominent among them is the Kingpin.
And so you have the Kingpin order aunt May's assassination. And it gets scary enough.
Then you propose this idea to the editor, and he reminds you the mess they made by using the Kingpin in Runaways, and that he was actually in jail in a major storyarc in DD and now out of the USA.
No matter, we'll make it so he has ordered the assassination from jail (mob bosses regularly do it).
Once again, no real imitation of Daredevil.

[Gloria]

Hi Francesco, thanks for your long post.

Your points are well explained and interestingly put. However, I still keep the idea that, although second in importance to Spiderman for the Powers-that-Be at Marvel, DD is well ahead in many aspects (and certainly in the Good Stories department).

[Francesco]

[Gloria]

[Neilan]

It’s a truism in business and especially pop culture. It’s easier to achieve success, than to maintain it. There used to be an ad campaign for the Avis car rental agency that proudly proclaimed, “We’re #2, we try harder”. I think that works as an analogy to your 2nd stringer theory. For as long as DD is considered a second string book, we have the best chance of reaping the benefits.

Gloria wrote:

[Gloria]

[Neilan]

[Gloria]