|
Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
|
The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| The Overlord wrote: | | 1. Typhoid Mary: duh. |
Duh here, too. I confess I never warmed to her, too much of an Elektra substitute. But maybe ripped-out stockings work better for male readers
| The Overlord wrote: |
3. Mr. Fear: someone who is theory is DD's opposite and is one of the few villains who hated Matt before he even knew he was DD.
|
Mr. Fear has de potential of becoming one of the scariest villains in the MU, and not DD. His fear-inducing drug is a powerful device, for any of his foes, mighty as they could be, is utterly defenceless if haunted by his/her worst fear. In bet he could even fight the Hulk.
| The Overlord wrote: | | The question with Synn is he interesting enough to do more stories, in the present? |
Tackled by good authors, even the Man-Bull could be interesting 
Now seriously, I have stated that Micah had potential (if, IMHO, a tad unfulfilled): When we last heard about him, he was to be deported to Africa, fed up with the civilized society he had experienced. A comeback, if well-handled, might be interesting: he's strong and very mean, in a primitive-jungle boy machiavellan way
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gloria wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | | 1. Typhoid Mary: duh. |
Duh here, too. I confess I never warmed to her, too much of an Elektra substitute. But maybe ripped-out stockings work better for male readers |
There is more to it then that. Frankly Mary has a better motive then Elektra, she is supposed to be crazy, what's Elekra's excuse? Plus with her MPD you have to realize that there is an innocent person within that mess of a person. Typhoid Mary comes across as someone who has been abused and mistreated for a long time, making her insanity worse, not better. I can feel sorry for her on a certain level.
Plus you can play her off other rogues. She could be more than just Kingpin's hench wench. In her own twisted mind she sees herself as a feminist, so that would make for a great conflict against Purple Man, the depraved rapist, with DD in the middle. To build a great rogues gallery, the villains should interact with eachother, as well as the hero.
| Gloria wrote: |
Mr. Fear has de potential of becoming one of the scariest villains in the MU, and not DD. His fear-inducing drug is a powerful device, for any of his foes, mighty as they could be, is utterly defenceless if haunted by his/her worst fear. In bet he could even fight the Hulk. |
Fear has a few problems though, first many people complain he is too much like the DC villain Scarecrow. I'm not sure that is fair, I'm sure Mr. Fear used the fear gas gimmick first (Scarecrow came first but didn't use that gimmick in his golden age appearances.) Still it is a common complaint even though there are tons of other knock off characters that never get the same complaints (Catwoman/Black Cat, Namor/Aquaman, Iron Man/Steel, Green Arrow/Hawkeye, etc.)
That's problem 1, problem 2 is he is very convoluted for a character that should be very simple. There have been 4 different Mr. fear characters over the years, how is a villain supposed to develop if he keeps on getting killed and replaced? They have to pick one guy and stick with him. I say just bring back Larry Cranston. He was the most interesting of the bunch, he had a personal grudge against DD, unlike the others who were mainly greedy thugs. Plus he always struck as being the most clever.
Problem 3, his costume kinda sucks. But that can be fixed. Make his cloak tattered and jet black, give him clawed gloves and make his skull mask white. Now that be more Grim Reaper and less Skeletor.
Mr. Fear has potenial, but he still needs some work.
| Gloria wrote: |
Tackled by good authors, even the Man-Bull could be interesting
Now seriously, I have stated that Micah had potential (if, IMHO, a tad unfulfilled): When we last heard about him, he was to be deported to Africa, fed up with the civilized society he had experienced. A comeback, if well-handled, might be interesting: he's strong and very mean, in a primitive-jungle boy machiavellan way |
It would take a god to make Stilt-Man work in DD's world. 
Perhaps they could play up the cult leader aspect with Synn. Cults can be really spooky in real life, there is some real potenial there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gloria wrote: | Neilan, the more I read "Guardian Devil", the more I just like anything else  . Smith's work is, of course, a goshdarn DD bestseller, and, the Gods forgive them, there's people who even rates it higher than "Born Again". But to me it seems more vacuous with each re-reading... A lot of FX, and an awful lot of casualties just to create "sensation"... not unlike the story had been written by the "second Stringer" Quentin Beck he portrayed. |
I don't despise Guardian Devil. I just feel it recycles/rips off old ideas to get its strongest emotional responses, borrows someone else's B list villain and is too heavy handed in its religious mysticism. If it wasn't for the fact that it was the start of a reboot and put out by "name" creators, I feel it would be considered a so-so arc that happened to kill a main cast member.
| Quote: | | Back to the Synn story, I'm not entirely satisfied with Debbie Harris Nelson being turned by O'Neil into a mix of Lady Macbeth (i.e. in her manipulation of poor Foggy) and Emma Bovary (in her being bored with her married life, and other besides...)... True, Debbie, as a character, had not been dealt with in depth previously, but so far she seemed to me someone who really Loved Foggy and cared about him, and, hey, they had been dating for long enough for her to realize that Foggy was "a boring lawyer" before they married! |
I know what you mean about Debbie. I was dissappointed in her behaviour, but she did have a history of deception and though I would have expected her to appreciate the Fogmeister  for his faith in her, I could see how Sinn's attentions could blind her to Foggy's inner beauty. Let's face it, Foggy's not the most exciting guy to begin with and it's easy for a marriage to get stale after awhile.
| Quote: | | (Dammit: if she could stand the Fogster's wedding attire, she could stand just anything ) |
Hey, I didn't see anything wrong with his outfit . . . of course, this is coming from someone who once wore a gold velour tuxedo with a black "Superfly" hat to a senior prom. 
_________________
It's never too late to have a happy childhood! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gloria wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | | 1. Typhoid Mary: duh. |
Duh here, too. I confess I never warmed to her, too much of an Elektra substitute. But maybe ripped-out stockings work better for male readers
|
The only similarity between Elektra and Mary is that they're women. That's it. Well, and they both worked for the Kingpin (but then so has basically every DD villian at one point or another).
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Neilan wrote: |
I know what you mean about Debbie. I was dissappointed in her behaviour, but she did have a history of deception and though I would have expected her to appreciate the Fogmeister for his faith in her, I could see how Sinn's attentions could blind her to Foggy's inner beauty. Let's face it, Foggy's not the most exciting guy to begin with and it's easy for a marriage to get stale after awhile.
|
Of course, Debbie had a bad start, for she was introduced as someone trying to manipulate Foggy, following orders from the Organizer, who wanted Nelson to become the DA (though actually, a sort of straw man for his evil purposes). Anyway, Debbie later redeemed herself, to the point that she left Foggy when he was advised that dating an ex-con was bad for his prospects as a DA: it was nice that Foggy, too risked bad press and went after her, and went out with her to public events. They were mostly pictured as a rather devoted couple from then on. And Miller also defined Debbie as a supportive wife concerned for his husband, at the time when Foggy had a whale of self-confidence crisis of when The Storefront (Fog & Matt's free clinic) failed to find financial support to continue working.
However, turning Debbie into a dislikeable character is not unlike turning Karen Page into a junkie... In fact, from my dislike of the Debbie/Synn situation it is evident that "bad Debbie" worked well as a story device. And Foggy's treason to Matt and Becky out of pitiful motives was very harrowing.
The Synn saga was indeed loaded with pathos.
A worrying thing about the Debbie/Synn relationship is that Synn is evidently a bully and a mistreater: He may have the build of an Alpha male, but what's the fun and excitement of an Alpha male beating and humiliating you? Even before she had to experience Synn's rough treatment, it was obvious that he and his people weren't very nice, precisely (laughing at the pain of others, at handicapped people, etc... The fact that Synn was defined by most female characters in the book as very sexy seemed to me very worrying.
| Neilan wrote: | | Hey, I didn't see anything wrong with his outfit . . . of course, this is coming from someone who once wore a gold velour tuxedo with a black "Superfly" hat to a senior prom. |
Wow, that sounds so... so very "Super-Disco-Fashion"
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| james castle wrote: | | The only similarity between Elektra and Mary is that they're women. That's it. Well, and they both worked for the Kingpin (but then so has basically every DD villian at one point or another). |
There are more coincidences:
A) troublesome relationship with Matt: they are lovers and enemies
B) Both have trouble in mind, of different degrees and for different reasons, but they can be defined as being bit screwy
C) Martial Arts skills and weaponry: Sais for Elektra, Katana for Mary
D) They are both tragic women
There are differences, of course, but IMHO, Tiphoid Mary (or indeed, Echo) were patterned in one aspect or other after Elektra.
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Elektra and Mary are totally different. And, Nocieti's Mary actually is the most "intersting" of the two. And, Miller's version of Elektra in the MWF mini is more of a retconned Typhoid, if you ask me.
And, Matt and Mary slept together on one occasion and that was in Last Rites when Matt turned the tables on Mary (and got her commited). Chichester spells out that that was there first sexual encounter and it is Matt's (sexual) aggression (Mary's usual role in their relationship) that takes Mary's edge away and he is able to take away the power she had over him.
| Quote: | B) Both have trouble in mind, of different degrees and for different reasons, but they can be defined as being bit screwy
C) Martial Arts skills and weaponry: Bionic arm for Bush, anything for Bulls
D) They are both tragic MEN |
With this logic, Bullseye and Bushwaker are identital too!
rgj |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think rgj handles this well, but just to pile on:
| Gloria wrote: |
There are more coincidences:
A) troublesome relationship with Matt: they are lovers and enemies
|
Oh, you mean how Matt and Elektra were lovers in university and then enemies after Elektra's father was killed right in front of them both and Elektra became a ninja and how that's like Matt being involved with Mary who is, entirely unknown to him, actually Typhoid who is suffering from MPD? Yeah, that's similar alright.
| Gloria wrote: |
B) Both have trouble in mind, of different degrees and for different reasons, but they can be defined as being bit screwy
|
Non-MWF Elektra isn't "screwy". She's bad but there's no indication she's insane or anything.
| Gloria wrote: |
C) Martial Arts skills and weaponry: Sais for Elektra, Katana for Mary |
So they both punch things and have weapons? It's not even clear Typhoid knows martial arts beyond kicking and punching.
| Gloria wrote: |
D) They are both tragic women |
How is Typhoid tragic? Maybe, maybe, if you accept the Deadpool Annual nonsense (which I don't) you could say she's tragic but she's not a "tragic character" in the way Elektra is. Typhoid is actually kinda kick ass.
| Gloria wrote: |
There are differences, of course, but IMHO, Tiphoid Mary (or indeed, Echo) were patterned in one aspect or other after Elektra. |
Okay, fine, IMHO Typhoid Mary was patterned off, I dunno, Leap Frog. How's that?
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How on earth can you say that? Leapfrog doesn't have any martial arts skill.
Oh, and also, he's a guy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Francesco wrote: | How on earth can you say that? Leapfrog doesn't have any martial arts skill.
Oh, and also, he's a guy. |
I think you misread my post. I said "IMHO". It's "IMHO" so it's unchallangeable and true.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think Mary is tragic character, consider that one of her personalities is completely innocent and is victim of her more violent and dominant personalities. One can feel sorry for that innocent part of Mary. Plus unlike Elektra, Mary is legally insane, she is not in control of her actions. That seems tragic to me. A villain can kick ass and be tragic at the same time. In the latest arc, Gladiator was both tragic and kick ass.
Frankly Mary makes more sense than Elektra. Terrorists kill Elektra's dad and Elektra becomes an assassin. How does that work? I don't see how she is that tragic. I haven't seen any evidence that she isn't willing to kill innocent people for money. Sure she spared Foggy, but Foggy was Matt's friend. Would she spare an innocent stranger? I don't see what so tragic about Elektra. What I'm supposed to feel sorry for her because terrorists killed her dad? Then she should go around killing terrorists, not killing people for money. Elektra shouldn't have come back from the dead.
As for Mary's fighting abilities, they seem pretty impressive. In "Hardcore" she blocked a bullet with her sword. That seems like impressive fighting skills to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Overlord wrote: | | Frankly Mary makes more sense than Elektra. Terrorists kill Elektra's dad and Elektra becomes an assassin. How does that work? |
I don't understand why people "don't get" this. Why is Elektra becoming an assassin so different from Matt becoming a superhero?
It's not as if Elektra just decided, "That's it, my dad's dead, I'm becoming an evil assassin."
Frank Miller makes Elektra's conversion "to the dark side" (if you will) very believable. People seem to forget that Elektra actaully didn't start off as wanting to become "evil." She actually sought the Chaste. She wanted to actually be one of the good guys, if you believe Stick's philosophy.
It was Stick who saw anger in Elektra. And, he eventaully banished her. Elektra then decided to join the Hand, but it is clearly spelled out that she actually just wanted to USE the Hand for her training. She had no intent on being an "evil assassin." Her sensi (he REAL one and not the garbage by Greg Ruka in the last failed Elektra series) warned Elektra of their manipulative ways. She did not listen and they tricked her into killing her own sensi. The Hand recruited her, manipulated her and they twisted her.
So, what's the deal? Why is it so hard to "get" that the events of her father's death began a long and convoluted journey to her eventual fate. Just as Matt's loss of his father lead to becoming a "hero."
Perhaps the fact that most of this story is told in a rushed/flashback manner doesn't help. Maybe people would have understood a little more if it had been written in a Bendis/snail pace.
rgj |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rgj wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | | Frankly Mary makes more sense than Elektra. Terrorists kill Elektra's dad and Elektra becomes an assassin. How does that work? |
I don't understand why people "don't get" this. Why is Elektra becoming an assassin so different from Matt becoming a superhero?
It's not as if Elektra just decided, "That's it, my dad's dead, I'm becoming an evil assassin."
Frank Miller makes Elektra's conversion "to the dark side" (if you will) very believable. People seem to forget that Elektra actaully didn't start off as wanting to become "evil." She actually sought the Chaste. She wanted to actually be one of the good guys, if you believe Stick's philosophy.
It was Stick who saw anger in Elektra. And, he eventaully banished her. Elektra then decided to join the Hand, but it is clearly spelled out that she actually just wanted to USE the Hand for her training. She had no intent on being an "evil assassin." Her sensi (he REAL one and not the garbage by Greg Ruka in the last failed Elektra series) warned Elektra of their manipulative ways. She did not listen and they tricked her into killing her own sensi. The Hand recruited her, manipulated her and they twisted her.
So, what's the deal? Why is it so hard to "get" that the events of her father's death began a long and convoluted journey to her eventual fate. Just as Matt's loss of his father lead to becoming a "hero."
Perhaps the fact that most of this story is told in a rushed/flashback manner doesn't help. Maybe people would have understood a little more if it had been written in a Bendis/snail pace.
rgj |
Eh, that seems like a bit of a cop out, it seems kinda lame IMO. The Hand corrupted her, so wouldn't they have instilled a sense of cult like loyalty as well? I mean she ditched them after a while, right. Its not like she has Stockholm syndrome or something, she isn't Patty Hurst. I doubt the Hand took away her sense of right and wrong, she still seems rational. Saying the hand "corrupted" her seems like an excuse that allows her to avoid moral responsibility.
The problem I have with her is she is presented as an anti hero , but is there any evidence she doesn't kill innocent people for money? She took the job to kill Foggy and only spared him because he was Matt's friend, would she spared him if he was stranger? Catwoman only steals, that is why she is anti hero, she never killed an innocent person. If Elektra only kills evil people, then she would be an anti hero, like Hit Man, otherwise she's villain who uses excuses to justify her actions. Its like what they did with Venom, after being presented as a psychopath who kills cops, they tried to make him into an anti hero, it didn't work.
The difference between DD and Elektra is how they responded to their tragic events.
Criminals killed Matt's father, so he gets revenge on criminals
by brining them to justice. That's a fair and balanced response.
Elektra's father is killed and she become an assassin who kills people for money. If she killed even one innocent person her actions are more about indulging her greed at the expense of innocent lives, rather then any sort of justified response to her father's death.
This why I don't like her, she is presented as anti hero, but there certain rules anti heroes have to follow (like not killing innocent people). Mary, at least, is too insane to tell the difference from right and wrong, while Elektra is perfectly sane.
Last edited by The Overlord on Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| james castle wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | How on earth can you say that? Leapfrog doesn't have any martial arts skill.
Oh, and also, he's a guy. |
I think you misread my post. I said "IMHO". It's "IMHO" so it's unchallangeable and true. |
Really? I swear that YO or even YHO are normally "unchallangeable and true" by default. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Overlord wrote: |
This why I don't like her, she is presented as anti hero, but there certain rules anti heroes have to follow (like not killing innocent people). Mary, at least, is too insane to tell the difference from right and wrong, while Elektra is perfectly sane. |
Isn't the very point of an anti-hero that they don't follow rules? There's nothing that says anti-heros can't kill innocent people.
That said, if one just looks at the Elektra Saga it is true that it's not entirely clear that Elektra even does that much evil stuff. She seems to simply knock off bad guys for bad guys.
As for how she went bad: she was infected with evil. Didn't anyone read Fall From Grace? Comon!
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
