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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: |
As for 'noble' bad guys, well Wolfmans Torpedo easily falls into that category. Even Namor, who plays the bad guy in DD #7 and countless FF stories, has nobility pouring out of him.
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Didn't both these guys turn out to be heroes?
With regard to #300, I take your point but my reading of it was always that it was a sort of fall from grace. It was Kingpin stripped of his noblity. True, he was stripped to his core and therefore proven to be not infallibaly noble but a bit of the point was that he was a man of at least some dignity but then lost it during Last Rites.
[In other unrelated news, I was at a friend's cottage recently and was pleasantly surprised to find a huge stash of old comics. Amongst them were three DD issue spanning Wolfman's Torpedo/Jester arc. I'm almost embarassed to admit it but I really liked them. I may have to revisit my "pre-Miller and O'Neil DD sucks" stance].
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JC
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is that the terms, villain and noble are both antithetical and subjective. A villain is someone who is severely lacking in morals. Someone is considered noble when they are of high moral character. They are basically the opposites of each other. And what is considered moral, is not universal, it fluctuates culturally and even within a culture. For example, to some, gay marriage is immoral, to others, the prohibition of gay marriage is. The point being, that whoever is doing the judging that someone is noble, cannot judge that same person to be a villain. So, I think the best you can hope for is a less ignoble villain, such as Dr. Doom, who at least doesn’t lie, or a Vito Corleone, who won’t sell drugs. You could call them honorable villains, but you can’t, by definition, have a truly noble villain.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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A noble villain?
One who has enough power to maintain his status as prominent villain without having to resort to blackmail, thratening of innocent third persons etc.
One who doesn't kill all of a sudden an unsuspecting victim, like Matador II did with Lucca.
Given the chance, the noble villain would, in fact, save the kitten from the fire. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | A noble villain?
One who has enough power to maintain his status as prominent villain without having to resort to blackmail, thratening of innocent third persons etc.
One who doesn't kill all of a sudden an unsuspecting victim, like Matador II did with Lucca.
Given the chance, the noble villain would, in fact, save the kitten from the fire. |
Wow. You really can't come up with an example can you?
Guess that's the price you pay when your position isn't all that thought out in the first place.
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JC
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Why aren't you laughing? |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | A noble villain?
One who has enough power to maintain his status as prominent villain without having to resort to blackmail, thratening of innocent third persons etc.
One who doesn't kill all of a sudden an unsuspecting victim, like Matador II did with Lucca.
Given the chance, the noble villain would, in fact, save the kitten from the fire. |
Wow. You really can't come up with an example can you? |
It's impossible to come up with an example, because no such thing exists. When you decide that someone is a villain, you are doing so based on a moral judgment that they are bad. When you judge someone to be noble, you are going through the same process, except that they are morally good. And these are not piecemeal terms, that is you are not picking from an American Chinese menu, 1 from column A, 2 from col. B. It’s based on the complete package, one’s total moral character.
In the case of Magneto, one might agree with his cause, but it doesn't excuse his actions. If his actions are evil, then he can't be considered noble.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Neilan wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | A noble villain?
One who has enough power to maintain his status as prominent villain without having to resort to blackmail, thratening of innocent third persons etc.
One who doesn't kill all of a sudden an unsuspecting victim, like Matador II did with Lucca.
Given the chance, the noble villain would, in fact, save the kitten from the fire. |
Wow. You really can't come up with an example can you? |
It's impossible to come up with an example, because no such thing exists. When you decide that someone is a villain, you are doing so based on a moral judgment that they are bad. When you judge someone to be noble, you are going through the same process, except that they are morally good. And these are not piecemeal terms, that is you are not picking from an American Chinese menu, 1 from column A, 2 from col. B. It’s based on the complete package, one’s total moral character.
In the case of Magneto, one might agree with his cause, but it doesn't excuse his actions. If his actions are evil, then he can't be considered noble. |
Well, I disagree. I think villians (i.e. people who do "bad" things (criminal things) can be noble. Magneto is a great example. He's a noble guy who does bad things. I think at the end of the day the disagreement is an ends/means thing. I think, in Magneto's case, the ends usually do justify the means. Hence, to me he's a noble villian.
But I see where you're coming from. That's why I pointed out that Frac and The Overlord's position is basically that noble villians don't exist. Frac seems to disagree with that characterization of his stance and yet refuses to come up with a concrete example.
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JC
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Why aren't you laughing? |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Neilan wrote: |
It's impossible to come up with an example, because no such thing exists. When you decide that someone is a villain, you are doing so based on a moral judgment that they are bad. When you judge someone to be noble, you are going through the same process, except that they are morally good. And these are not piecemeal terms, that is you are not picking from an American Chinese menu, 1 from column A, 2 from col. B. It’s based on the complete package, one’s total moral character.
In the case of Magneto, one might agree with his cause, but it doesn't excuse his actions. If his actions are evil, then he can't be considered noble. |
Well, I disagree. I think villians (i.e. people who do "bad" things (criminal things) can be noble. Magneto is a great example. He's a noble guy who does bad things. I think at the end of the day the disagreement is an ends/means thing. I think, in Magneto's case, the ends usually do justify the means. Hence, to me he's a noble villian.
But I see where you're coming from. That's why I pointed out that Frac and The Overlord's position is basically that noble villians don't exist. Frac seems to disagree with that characterization of his stance and yet refuses to come up with a concrete example. |
My position is based on Webster's dictionary. I think you're confusing being honorable (the upholding of one's principles), with being noble (being of high moral character).
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Neilan wrote: |
My position is based on Webster's dictionary. I think you're confusing being honorable (the upholding of one's principles), with being noble (being of high moral character). |
Well dictionary.com says that:
Villain means: 1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
Noble mean: 4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
It's not at all clear to me that those two things are mutually exclusive.
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JC
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Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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And who needs to come out with a concrete example?
You're the one going around making statements such as "Kingpin is noble" "Richard III is a noble character" (Who's next? Polyphemus?), so the burden of the proof is entirely yours. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Neilan wrote: |
My position is based on Webster's dictionary. I think you're confusing being honorable (the upholding of one's principles), with being noble (being of high moral character). |
Well dictionary.com says that:
Villain means: 1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
Noble mean: 4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
It's not at all clear to me that those two things are mutually exclusive. |
They aren't in fact.
And specifically Kingpin belongs only in the former category. |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | Neilan wrote: |
My position is based on Webster's dictionary. I think you're confusing being honorable (the upholding of one's principles), with being noble (being of high moral character). |
Well dictionary.com says that:
Villain means: 1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
Noble mean: 4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
It's not at all clear to me that those two things are mutually exclusive. |
They aren't in fact.
And specifically Kingpin belongs only in the former category. |
Well, at least I got you guys to agree on something, even if it's that you don't agree with me.
However, according to dictionary.com, wickedness means:
1. morally objectionable behavior [syn: evil]
How can exalted moral character fit with morally objectionable behavior?
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Neilan wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | Neilan wrote: |
My position is based on Webster's dictionary. I think you're confusing being honorable (the upholding of one's principles), with being noble (being of high moral character). |
Well dictionary.com says that:
Villain means: 1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
Noble mean: 4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
It's not at all clear to me that those two things are mutually exclusive. |
They aren't in fact.
And specifically Kingpin belongs only in the former category. |
Well, at least I got you guys to agree on something, even if it's that you don't agree with me.
However, according to dictionary.com, wickedness means:
1. morally objectionable behavior [syn: evil]
How can exalted moral character fit with morally objectionable behavior? |
Well, it's splitting hairs (but we are into the dictionary now) but the definition is "dedicated to wickedness OR crime". Since it's an OR instead of an AND someone can fall into the definition by simply being dedicated to crime.
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JC
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Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think I could write down the definition of crime. You know, just for the hell of it:
1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
2. Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.
3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.
4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a crime to squander our country's natural resources. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | And who needs to come out with a concrete example?
You're the one going around making statements such as "Kingpin is noble" "Richard III is a noble character" (Who's next? Polyphemus?), so the burden of the proof is entirely yours. |
What the hell are you talking about? We obviously disagree on what a "noble villain" might look like. As part of that disagreement it would obviously be helpful to share examples of who we think are examples of noble villains. I've given two examples (Fisk, Richard) and agreed with a third (Magneto).
The fact that you disagree with my examples doesn't mean I've failed to meet some "burden of proof". They're examples of who I think are noble villains. Not guesses as to who you think are noble villains. They are examples, not proof. Plus, of course you disagree with my examples. As above, we obviously disagree on the definition so it's not surprising that you disagree with my examples (that are based on my definition (which you disagree with)).
And yes, I've said I think Fisk is noble. Your childish response to that was "BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!". Since you obviously disagree with me enough to pull something out of a 6th grader's bag of argument tricks you'd think you'd be willing to back up your "BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!" and expand on your position. Thus far? Not so much. You claim you believe that there are noble villians but you've done nothing but argue the negative position (i.e. Fisk in not noble). For some odd reason you refuse to give any examples at all even though I've asked a number of times.
Whatever, at this point I assume you're just being a dick on purpose so I'll let it go and try to ignore your future outbursts or at least take them for the little they are.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Weeeeee!!!! Here comes the funny part!
Hey Castle, could you name a non-noble villain? You know, just for the funnies. Since obviously, clearly [insert 6 grader modal adverb to confuse the illiterate] there are no proofs but just examples?
| Quote: |
3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.
4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a crime to squander our country's natural resources. |
Oh, lookie lookie!  |
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