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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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 Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not interested in court action when reading my favourite comic book. Daredevil is not Matlock or Law & Order.
It's a theme that can be touched since it has always been part of the character, but only tangentially. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | I'm not interested in court action when reading my favourite comic book. Daredevil is not Matlock or Law & Order.
It's a theme that can be touched since it has always been part of the character, but only tangentially. |
I must say that my opinion in that regard is very different.
There's a guiding theme in Murdock's life, in or out of costume, and this is "Justice"... You have a lot of heroes who can do Justice while in costume, but Matt can do it also in Court. If you take the Court from Matt, or obliterate it, you are forgetting a relevant side or Murdock. Spidey may knock a villain and tie him to a lampost with his webbing, but daredevil can knock the villain and bring charges against him. That's not an irrelevant difference. And I think that DD's way is, ultimately, more efficient.
I feel that Matt being a lawyer is a bit under-used, and personally, I find this is not seizing all the possibilities that the character offers: there are some good & entertaining comics about lawyers as "Supernatural Law" or its Marvel Universe equivalent "She-Hulk"... I find it ironic that the character who is possibly the comics character better known as a lawyer, devotes so little space to his practice.
Honestly, I think that there have been occasions when Matt's life as a counselor has been dealt with, to good end, as in Miller's "child's Play" where two different conceptions of Justice (DD's and the Punisher's) are confronted, and Matt has to do so both in the streets AND in court... this is one great Dd story (IMHO).
Well, that is, anyway, just my point of view: but I do believe that, if Matt weren't a lawyer, he would be just one of the many martial-arts heroes around. Of course, I also like and love stories where DD has no court action at all, but I feel that it should be not forgotten that it is the Law, that makes him what he is: without the Law he would be just another John Doe in tights with a super-power gimmick.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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If you take the Court from Matt, or obliterate it, you are forgetting a relevant side or Murdock. |
In fact, I didn't say that. I said:
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It's a theme that can be touched since it has always been part of the character, but only tangentially. |
But about giving the title more "court action"? I say thee nay.
| Quote: | | Well, that is, anyway, just my point of view: but I do believe that, if Matt weren't a lawyer, he would be just one of the many martial-arts heroes around. |
Yet, if Matt weren't a super-hero who "stalks the city at night, smashing evil", he would be just one of the many "handsome legal drama guys" out there. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | In fact, I didn't say that. I said:
| Quote: | | It's a theme that can be touched since it has always been part of the character, but only tangentially. |
But about giving the title more "court action"? I say thee nay. |
Well, yes, that's what I meant, I do want more court action, myself!
Not that I want only court action, in DD, but my complaint is that, as you say, more often than not, it is only tangentially used. He's not just a lawyer just to do the income tax returns of his clients. He became a Lawyer to prevent the Big fish eating the little fish...
Anyway, just MHO, I know that we'll always be at odds about that issue 
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well, yes, that's what I meant, I do want more court action, myself! |
Then that's the point where our opinions diverge. No problem with that.
Who do I look like? A message board fanboy?  |
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Marvel Knight
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
Location: Kingston, ON, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I love it when we can see Murdock in court trying to defend victims of injustice when the legal drama is well written (the drive to protect the "little guy" is a big part of who Murdock is). I'm thinking of recent examples like Trial of the Century and Redemption. Both stories I loved. But there is room for all sorts of different kinds of stories in DD given how versatile the character is.
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Quote: | | Well, yes, that's what I meant, I do want more court action, myself! |
Then that's the point where our opinions diverge. No problem with that.
Who do I look like? A message board fanboy? |
Message board fanpeople in a fans' message board? what an exotic thought!
| Marvel Knight wrote: | | Personally, I love it when we can see Murdock in court trying to defend victims of injustice when the legal drama is well written (the drive to protect the "little guy" is a big part of who Murdock is). I'm thinking of recent examples like Trial of the Century and Redemption. Both stories I loved. But there is room for all sorts of different kinds of stories in DD given how versatile the character is. |
Those are fine stories, and good examples to follow... though I admit that for a viable Court Drama, the writing must be very good... you can write medium action stories which will be still be reasonably entertaining, but a good courtroom drama has to be exquisitely crafted, otherwise they can get claustrophobic and somniferous, i.e. you take Billy Wilder's "Witness for the Prosecution" which is a succesful film because of an intriguing plot to save an innocent man from hanging, and because it has a darn good script
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Marvel Knight wrote: | | Personally, I love it when we can see Murdock in court trying to defend victims of injustice when the legal drama is well written (the drive to protect the "little guy" is a big part of who Murdock is). I'm thinking of recent examples like Trial of the Century and Redemption. Both stories I loved. But there is room for all sorts of different kinds of stories in DD given how versatile the character is. |
I too like to see Murdock in court, but not if this has to fill the 80% of five issues. I didn't like Trial of the Century. I found it boring, with a total lack of action. An entire storyarc dedicated to court drama (and an average court drama, by the way). That's sincerely too much. |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: |
| blacktyphoid wrote: | | Give me Bob Gale over Kevin Smith anytime. |
I know some people don't warm to his "Play to the camera" story, but I've always considered it interesting as he gave Matt & Foggy a bit of welcome Court Action (remember DD writers: Matt is a Lawyer... I repeat: Matt is a Lawyer) and dealt with DD's legal troubles about being Matt AND Daredevil... In fact, I've always considered that a very interesting preamble to Matt's outing trouble in the Bendis run (With no further consequences in Gale's story, and earth-shaking ones in Bendis')
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Gloria, I like your interpretation of "Play to the Camera" as a preamble to the Bendis' period. I never thought of it that way - but you're right. Matt's legal troubles as Daredevil does work well as a stand alone story as well as a preamble for what's to come.
Plus, I felt Gale was a genuine storyteller. He left behind some interesting story and character development (new staff, for example) that other writers could have picked up on (but didn't).
I also like Phil Winslade's art. His Murdock looked tall, heroic and cool. I thought his Matt Murdock look was a kind of throwback to the Romita/early Colan periods.
My only misgiving about the story was having Spider-Man fill-in for Daredevil. It would have been a nice touch if Black Panther once again played the role of the fill-in. In volume I, given the similarity of their costumes and general physical appearance, Black Panther was occasionaly mistaken for Daredevil.
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | I too like to see Murdock in court, but not if this has to fill the 80% of five issues. I didn't like Trial of the Century. I found it boring, with a total lack of action. An entire storyarc dedicated to court drama (and an average court drama, by the way). That's sincerely too much. |
I see what you mean. Still, we don't usually get as much legal action in the series as in "Trial of the Century", where it is clearly above DD average... I'd say that historically, the series doesn't devote to court stories more than a 5% of the stories: I'd be satisfied with an average of 20-30% of legal action (Yes, I like to see Matt swinging and beating villains with his Billy club as well, too ).
Interestingly, Brubaker has been giving some attention to the Firm of late, and current prospects seem to indicate that we will see Murdock showing his habilities in the costumed and non-costumed side.
(I liked his Lawyer-Client confrontation with the Kingpin in #93: it was, in a way, as powerful as a physical fight)
| blacktyphoid wrote: | | Plus, I felt Gale was a genuine storyteller. He left behind some interesting story and character development (new staff, for example) that other writers could have picked up on (but didn't). |
Yes, I regretted seeing no more of Elaine or Kate Vinokur : just imagine Elaine's or Kate's reaction on DD's being outed by the press! I bet they would be really pissed about it.
Miss Barbato was a nice daffy lady: good for a bit of comic relief.
I believe, in fact, that the charactherization of Foggy which Bendis made a trademark of (the "Matt, I'm totally with you but there are days when I would strangle you with your damn red tights" attitude) was in fact well defined in Gale's story
| blacktyphoid wrote: | | I also like Phil Winslade's art. His Murdock looked tall, heroic and cool. I thought his Matt Murdock look was a kind of throwback to the Romita/early Colan periods. |
I have the impression that Winslade must have been quite influenced by Colan's DD as well (he likes to use unusual perspective, etc). One thing I didn't like about teh story is the artists' changes : I like one story being drawn by the same person, otherwise you get a break in the consistency of the looks .
| blacktyphoid wrote: | | My only misgiving about the story was having Spider-Man fill-in for Daredevil. It would have been a nice touch if Black Panther once again played the role of the fill-in. In volume I, given the similarity of their costumes and general physical appearance, Black Panther was occasionaly mistaken for Daredevil. |
Yes, While I like the Spidey/DD interaction when it's good, I believe it rather drags the story when it is not. And I don't like it when they get too chummy, either.
I liked the DD stories featuring T'Challa, so your idea sounds good... still, in a Court T'Challa should have to wear make-up or some mask to impersonate DD.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: |
There's a guiding theme in Murdock's life, in or out of costume, and this is "Justice"... You have a lot of heroes who can do Justice while in costume, but Matt can do it also in Court. If you take the Court from Matt, or obliterate it, you are forgetting a relevant side or Murdock. Spidey may knock a villain and tie him to a lampost with his webbing, but daredevil can knock the villain and bring charges against him. That's not an irrelevant difference. And I think that DD's way is, ultimately, more efficient...
Honestly, I think that there have been occasions when Matt's life as a counselor has been dealt with, to good end, as in Miller's "child's Play" where two different conceptions of Justice (DD's and the Punisher's) are confronted, and Matt has to do so both in the streets AND in court... this is one great Dd story (IMHO). |
Wow, Gloria, well stated!
Then there are the various times when Matt uses his DD personna as a tool to gain additional information for his court case that he couldn't otherwise obtain. We've seen him do this in a story in Volume 1 to get Karen Page exonerated (although he needed the Kingpin's unknowing help to make that happen); he did it in The Redemption mini-series; and Brubaker had him recently doing it with The Gladiator. Also in Volume 1 he needed to use his DD personna to capture the Black Widow and convince her to stand trial on trumped up murder charges. So it's Murdock utilizing his DD personna not to deal vigilante justice but rather to enforce and uphold by-the-book court justice.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: |
There's a guiding theme in Murdock's life, in or out of costume, and this is "Justice"... You have a lot of heroes who can do Justice while in costume, but Matt can do it also in Court. If you take the Court from Matt, or obliterate it, you are forgetting a relevant side or Murdock. Spidey may knock a villain and tie him to a lampost with his webbing, but daredevil can knock the villain and bring charges against him. That's not an irrelevant difference. And I think that DD's way is, ultimately, more efficient.
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What are you talking about? Matt doesn't "bring charges against" anybody. He isn't a prosecutor. He catcheds criminals and then the DA brings charges. And what do you think happens to the criminals that are left spinning on lamp posts? They get picked up by police and charged. Your non-"irrelevant difference" is not only irrelevant...it doesn't exist.
As for the issues generally: if you guys are leaning on the universally panned and not very good "Playing to the Camera" story to argue for more court action, I'd say you're in trouble already.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: |
There's a guiding theme in Murdock's life, in or out of costume, and this is "Justice"... You have a lot of heroes who can do Justice while in costume, but Matt can do it also in Court. If you take the Court from Matt, or obliterate it, you are forgetting a relevant side or Murdock. Spidey may knock a villain and tie him to a lampost with his webbing, but daredevil can knock the villain and bring charges against him. That's not an irrelevant difference. And I think that DD's way is, ultimately, more efficient.
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What are you talking about? Matt doesn't "bring charges against" anybody. He isn't a prosecutor. He catcheds criminals and then the DA brings charges. And what do you think happens to the criminals that are left spinning on lamp posts? They get picked up by police and charged. Your non-"irrelevant difference" is not only irrelevant...it doesn't exist.
As for the issues generally: if you guys are leaning on the universally panned and not very good "Playing to the Camera" story to argue for more court action, I'd say you're in trouble already.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | What are you talking about? Matt doesn't "bring charges against" anybody |
If he doesn't bring charges against the Kingpin (to mention just one enemy) what does he bring... lollipops?
Matt has been an assistant DA on occasion, also. And not too long ago, he would harass the Kingpin's men and search for evidence by night as DD, giving it to Foggy - temporarily acting as an DA assistant- who was using it in court.
Matt is aware of the technicalities of law, and takes advantage of that knowledge.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | What are you talking about? Matt doesn't "bring charges against" anybody |
If he doesn't bring charges against the Kingpin (to mention just one enemy) what does he bring... lollipops? |
Sometimes I wonder if you are even trying to make sense. What does this mean? MATT DOESN'T BRING CHARGES AGAINST ANYONE. He beats them up and leaves them for the police. Just like Spider-man. A nonsensical comment about lollipops doesn't change that fact.
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Matt has been an assistant DA on occasion, also. And not too long ago, he would harass the Kingpin's men and search for evidence by night as DD, giving it to Foggy - temporarily acting as an DA assistant- who was using it in court. |
Both of these examples come from relatively brief periods in the book. Just because Matt and Foggy have been assistant DAs in the past doesn't mean that's a central part of Matt's character. Matt and Foggy have almost always been private counsel.
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Matt is aware of the technicalities of law, and takes advantage of that knowledge. |
Can you think of an example? You know, one reason I'm happy that the courtroom gets left out for the most part is that most writers are unable to write good legal drama. Most courtroom scene are hacky and techinically wrong. So your suggestion that Matt has ever used "the techincalities of law" is just wrong.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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